National News Boris Johnson - Ousted Former PM

QR said:
Was it a NATO exercise? Haven't read/heard that anywhere. That would shine a slightly different light on it.
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Yes, HMS Defender and the Dutch warship are part of the Queen Elizabeth taskforce that is in the Med along with the US and possibly French but I think our ships replaced the French ships. The visit to Ukraine was part of the mission iirc.
 
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Marked Ox said:
Yes, HMS Defender and the Dutch warship are part of the Queen Elizabeth taskforce that is in the Med along with the US and possibly French but I think our ships replaced the French ships. The visit to Ukraine was part of the mission iirc.
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Can you evidence this was a NATO exercise? I can't find anything to support this claim.
 
Marked Ox said:
This posturing goes on all the time, the Russians do it quite regularly to us trying to send long range bombers into our airspace, and US Navy in the South China Sea after China has stolen land/seabed off smaller nations. For example, recently the Russians tried pushing the boundaries with the Queen Elizabeth taskforce while it was supporting missions in Iraq against Daesh etc.

It is necessary to back our ally, Ukraine, after they had their land stolen by Russia or should we just ignore that the Crimea was stolen?

It is also necessary as Russia has previously tried to block access to other nations to the surrounding international waters/Black Sea with threats hence why such patrols involving NATO allies has become a regular thing. I think we have sent patrols annually now for the last 3 or 4 years with US and French Navy partners.

And journalists don't only embed in war, it is fairly common in war or peace. After all there was a TV series following Royal Navy ships in recent years that went into the Med, Black Sea etc.

Further, the Journalist may have been there as days before we signed a deal on new ships with Ukraine. 2 Missile ships to be built in the UK and 6 of the same to be made in Ukraine all for the Ukrainian Navy. They are also buying 2 old Royal Navy Minesweepers which will be refitted in the UK before joining the Ukrainian Navy.

This is probably why the Russians have got noisy about something that is quite common. After all a year or so a go a Russian fleet did similar when it went through the English Channel.
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I'm not f*****g stupid, I know this stuff happens a lot. But it's not broadcast on the BBC 10 o'clock news a lot!

Why suddenly now? (And if the BBC is so short of funds why does it 'often' have reporters on these ships ?)

Basically, what the fcks going on?
 
QR said:
Can you evidence this was a NATO exercise? I can't find anything to support this claim.
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One of the articles I linked I think mentions HMS Defender and the Dutch Warship were part of the Queen Elizabeth taskforce. Another article (something like BBC/Independent or Guardian) I read about that Taskforce being buzzed by Russian warplanes from Syria discussed it being a NATO mission. It isn't an exercise as the Taskforce is actually doing military oversight for ongoing missions in Iraq.

I should add, as an aside, the Russians when they tried to buzz Queen Elizabeth also buzzed the US as part of the Air Fleet are US Marines F35s. I don't remember anybody getting all uppity about the Russians doing this. The Royal Navy Officer in one of the interviews talked about it being a normal part of duties.
 
QR said:
I'm not f*****g stupid, I know this stuff happens a lot. But it's not broadcast on the BBC 10 o'clock news a lot!

Why suddenly now? (And if the BBC is so short of funds why does it 'often' have reporters on these ships ?)

Basically, what the fcks going on?
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Nothing is going on, that is the point, absolutely nothing. The Russians got uppity because we signed a deal for new Missile Ships and a couple of refitted Minesweepers with Ukraine. We also did it in the Black Sea which they are trying to stop others using as they want it to be their sea (it isn't under any international law, hence the sailing the other day), just as China is trying in the South China Sea.

NATO have sailed missions into the Black Sea annually, certainly since the Crimea was stolen.

How much do you think it costs the BBC to have a Journalist on a Royal Navy Ship? It is one person who will be communicating using navy equipment or his mobile when he can/allowed.
 
Marked Ox said:
Nothing is going on, that is the point, absolutely nothing. The Russians got uppity because we signed a deal for new Missile Ships and a couple of refitted Minesweepers with Ukraine. We also did it in the Black Sea which they are trying to stop others using as they want it to be their sea (it isn't under any international law, hence the sailing the other day), just as China is trying in the South China Sea.

NATO have sailed missions into the Black Sea annually, certainly since the Crimea was stolen.

How much do you think it costs the BBC to have a Journalist on a Royal Navy Ship? It is one person who will be communicating using navy equipment or his mobile when he can/allowed.
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Fair enough then. And yes I get that this goes on all the time, but all this posturing about "sending a warning".... "a gentle nudge" . . .or "my ship's bigger than yours" . . ."you and whose army?"...well it's all a bit playground/adolescent isn't it? What next...."it's the only language they understand"?

And maybe if it was consistent with all nation states that steal land or exert oppression and undue influence on others, it might be a bit more transparent. The problem is we have to decide if they are our allies first (and what's in it for us) and that dictates how we behave towards them.
 
QR said:
I did listen to him. He didn't say it was a NATO exercise. You implied it was. Was it?
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"HMS Defender has completed NATO security operations in the Mediterranean and will be heading to the Black Sea after a stop in Istanbul.​

The Type 45 destroyer is part of the UK’s Carrier Strike Group but has peeled away from the task group temporarily to carry out her own set of missions in the Black Sea.

Over the past few weeks Portsmouth-based Defender completed intensive training and worked on Operation Sea Guardian, NATO’s mission in the Mediterranean to deter and counter terrorism.

Defender is now in Istanbul with Dutch frigate HNLMS Evertsen – which is also part of the Carrier Strike Group – and will be hosting representatives from the Turkish government, business world, armed forces and defence sector during her stay there."


We are part of NATO so it`s not "seen as" a UK ship having a pop, it was just going about it`s business as part of what the RN does.
It is the "United Countries" that will apply pressure on Russia be it through "walking on their footpath" or financial sanctions at state or individual level.

 
Sheik djibouti said:
Fair enough then. And yes I get that this goes on all the time, but all this posturing about "sending a warning".... "a gentle nudge" . . .or "my ship's bigger than yours" . . ."you and whose army?"...well it's all a bit playground/adolescent isn't it? What next...."it's the only language they understand"?

And maybe if it was consistent with all nation states that steal land or exert oppression and undue influence on others, it might be a bit more transparent. The problem is we have to decide if they are our allies first (and what's in it for us) and that dictates how we behave towards them.
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Which of our allies are trying to close down access to whole swathes of international waters through intimidation etc? (Genuine question)
 
Essexyellows said:

"HMS Defender has completed NATO security operations in the Mediterranean and will be heading to the Black Sea after a stop in Istanbul.​

The Type 45 destroyer is part of the UK’s Carrier Strike Group but has peeled away from the task group temporarily to carry out her own set of missions in the Black Sea.

Over the past few weeks Portsmouth-based Defender completed intensive training and worked on Operation Sea Guardian, NATO’s mission in the Mediterranean to deter and counter terrorism.

Defender is now in Istanbul with Dutch frigate HNLMS Evertsen – which is also part of the Carrier Strike Group – and will be hosting representatives from the Turkish government, business world, armed forces and defence sector during her stay there."


We are part of NATO so it`s not "seen as" a UK ship having a pop, it was just going about it`s business as part of what the RN does.
It is the "United Countries" that will apply pressure on Russia be it through "walking on their footpath" or financial sanctions at state or individual level.

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Either you are agreeing that is wasn't part of a NATO exercise or you are saying that everything the navy do is in some way part of a larger NATO strategy. If it's the latter you are saying NATO in some way sanctioned the UK sending a warship to the channel Islands the other week as a show of strength against a few dozen French fishing boats.
 
QR said:
Either you are agreeing that is wasn't part of a NATO exercise or you are saying that everything the navy do is in some way part of a larger NATO strategy. If it's the latter you are saying NATO in some way sanctioned the UK sending a warship to the channel Islands the other week as a show of strength against a few dozen French fishing boats.
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We didn`t "send a warship to the Channel Islands".

"HMS Severn, which has previously been used to shadow Russian navy warships off the English coast, can be seen from the port, sitting off about a mile from the French boats. HMS Tamar is nearby and both ships are maintaining a presence and not making any effort to intervene.
No 10 said it sent the two navy vessels to "monitor the situation", while the maritime prefecture of Manche and mer du Nord told the BBC the two French patrol vessels were on a public service mission to ensure safety.
France has threatened to cut off electricity to Jersey, the largest Channel Island and a Crown dependency, located 14 miles (22km) off France. Crown dependencies are not part of the UK, but are defended and represented internationally by the UK government.

Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57003069

The best place to observe maritime behaviour and monitor compliance with maritime law is, amazingly, from a boat or a ship!

Very broadly speaking the RN at sea is partaking in some form of exercise with our allies, that can be anything from engagement with a defined enemy to trade missions through to NATO exercises.
It is very fluid as evidenced when HMS Hunter left a NATO exercise to do the trade part in Turkey.
De facto we are in NATO so any actions for or against don`t reflect on the UK alone, it`s not black & white.......... ask Vlad.
 
Essexyellows said:
We didn`t "send a warship to the Channel Islands".

"HMS Severn, which has previously been used to shadow Russian navy warships off the English coast, can be seen from the port, sitting off about a mile from the French boats. HMS Tamar is nearby and both ships are maintaining a presence and not making any effort to intervene.
No 10 said it sent the two navy vessels to "monitor the situation", while the maritime prefecture of Manche and mer du Nord told the BBC the two French patrol vessels were on a public service mission to ensure safety.
France has threatened to cut off electricity to Jersey, the largest Channel Island and a Crown dependency, located 14 miles (22km) off France. Crown dependencies are not part of the UK, but are defended and represented internationally by the UK government.

Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57003069

The best place to observe maritime behaviour and monitor compliance with maritime law is, amazingly, from a boat or a ship!

Very broadly speaking the RN at sea is partaking in some form of exercise with our allies, that can be anything from engagement with a defined enemy to trade missions through to NATO exercises.
It is very fluid as evidenced when HMS Hunter left a NATO exercise to do the trade part in Turkey.
De facto we are in NATO so any actions for or against don`t reflect on the UK alone, it`s not black & white.......... ask Vlad.
Click to expand...
An expert on the Royal Navy as well? Who knew.
 
Essexyellows said:
We didn`t "send a warship to the Channel Islands".

"HMS Severn, which has previously been used to shadow Russian navy warships off the English coast, can be seen from the port, sitting off about a mile from the French boats. HMS Tamar is nearby and both ships are maintaining a presence and not making any effort to intervene.
No 10 said it sent the two navy vessels to "monitor the situation", while the maritime prefecture of Manche and mer du Nord told the BBC the two French patrol vessels were on a public service mission to ensure safety.
France has threatened to cut off electricity to Jersey, the largest Channel Island and a Crown dependency, located 14 miles (22km) off France. Crown dependencies are not part of the UK, but are defended and represented internationally by the UK government.

Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57003069

The best place to observe maritime behaviour and monitor compliance with maritime law is, amazingly, from a boat or a ship!

Very broadly speaking the RN at sea is partaking in some form of exercise with our allies, that can be anything from engagement with a defined enemy to trade missions through to NATO exercises.
It is very fluid as evidenced when HMS Hunter left a NATO exercise to do the trade part in Turkey.
De facto we are in NATO so any actions for or against don`t reflect on the UK alone, it`s not black & white.......... ask Vlad.
Click to expand...
You've already agreed it wasn't part of a NATO exercise ergo 'HMS Defender has completed NATO security operations in the Mediterranean' so save your words other than to actually try and answer my question i.e why, if this happens all the time, was all over the BBC.

Another notch up on the heat. They never realise until we get to boiling point.
 
QR said:
You've already agreed it wasn't part of a NATO exercise ergo 'HMS Defender has completed NATO security operations in the Mediterranean' so save your words other than to actually try and answer my question i.e why, if this happens all the time, was all over the BBC.

Another notch up on the heat. They never realise until we get to boiling point.
Click to expand...

It isn't a notch up at all, the same happened last year and it made no difference. Russia fairly regularly flys their long distance flying Strategic Bombers (NATO designated "The Bear) upto our airspace and we respond by sending out RAF Typhoons to "escort"/shadow them away. It was why you occasionally get reports* of sonic booms being heard as the quick response RAF flights get up to station.

The notch up may be when the Queen Elizabeth taskforce continue their NATO mission and go into the South China Sea to challenge China's aggression over this sea with a right of passage sailing through those waters, just as the NATO have previously with US military doing likewise. Are you advocating NATO and ourselves turn a blind eye and let Russia/China take control of/shut off those seas by doing nothing? Should we be allowed to shut off the English Channel to the Russian Navy as they went through it in April+?

*There are other reasons as well such as Typhoons responding to reports of an unresponsive plane flying over London etc.

+
www.maritime-executive.com

Royal Navy Tracks Seven Russian Warships Through English Channel

The British patrol shipsHMS Tyne and Merseyhave recently been called upon to monitor the presence of...
www.maritime-executive.com www.maritime-executive.com
 
QR said:
You've already agreed it wasn't part of a NATO exercise ergo 'HMS Defender has completed NATO security operations in the Mediterranean' so save your words other than to actually try and answer my question i.e why, if this happens all the time, was all over the BBC.

Another notch up on the heat. They never realise until we get to boiling point.
Click to expand...

Well BBC, Channel 5 and others often have reporters & crews within military units, but hey it was the Russians rattling the pots & pans or pavement dancing on the other side of the street.
Mountains & molehills.
 
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