Boris (spaffing the facts) Johnson

The same CBI whose "independence" in the Brexit debate has been somewhat undermined because it received more than £1,000,000+ in funding from the European Commission between 2009 - 2016?

The same CBI that only polls its members then represents that as the "view of all business" ? Not just its club?

The same CBI that greatly benefits from cheap labour?

There are 5.2 million businesses in the UK....... yet the CBI only speak for (roughly) 33% of them (mostly the large ones who can afford the fee`s...)
You seem to have a very jaded view of organisations and their claims. You should remember that their concerns are echoed throughout european trading experts. And, we are hardly in a position to ignore the warnings.
 
To be honest I feel pretty ambivalent about this legal move against Doris. The original misrepresentation seemed to me to be so transparent I thought the majority of people wouldn’t have been taken in. A pledge by a Tory to voluntarily increase funding to the NHS, cloud cuckoo land. Additionally it will continue to feed Doris’ ludicrously inflated view of himself. I have no particular fears if he does become Leader of the Tory party, his last minute conversion to the Brexit banner screams ‘opportunist’. No good will come of this.
 
Stacking shelves in Tesco, for example, is also an important function within society, but the bloke who does it whilst insisting we 'just get out' might not have the same knowledge base as 90% of the decision makers in our major companies, wouldn't you agree?

A little unfair Pete, I seem to recall that a certain MD of Tesco started out "stacking shelves"

Being on the low pay end of the employment market does not equate with a lack of intelligence. That same person is also entitled to his or her opinion. That's democracy. That's freedom of choice.
You aren't really advocating voting rights by virtue of IQ, are you? And if that person has not been "informed" whose fault is that? Those same policy makers that act without informing?

I want out of the EU, not because I'm thick, it's because I don't like what it has become. I wanted a free trade area. (remember EFTA?)
 
A little unfair Pete, I seem to recall that a certain MD of Tesco started out "stacking shelves"

Being on the low pay end of the employment market does not equate with a lack of intelligence. That same person is also entitled to his or her opinion. That's democracy. That's freedom of choice.
You aren't really advocating voting rights by virtue of IQ, are you? And if that person has not been "informed" whose fault is that? Those same policy makers that act without informing?

I want out of the EU, not because I'm thick, it's because I don't like what it has become. I wanted a free trade area. (remember EFTA?)

What a load of sanctimonious old twaddle. Of course the vote of each citizen is worth the same, that's democracy. To say the value of the opinion of a person who performs a manual job, and whose knowledge base doesn't include business, is equal to that of a person who has learned how at least one business works on the subject of how any given change will affect that business is simply wrong. My God! You lot will even stoop to calumniating an archbishop, poor doddery old fathead, though he is.

And so you Leavers go on across every subject, however complex; expertise is suspect because it doesn't agree with your impossible fantasy of taking the country back to the victorian age. Virtually no-one with any clue how trade or business works thinks brexit will do anything but deplete investment, lose jobs and reduce the income, choices and happiness of 99% of the population. Even your victorian cheerleader, Rees-Mogg, has said it will take 50 years for the economy to recover.

If you're not a hedge fund manager or an american, voting for brexit is like voting for xmas if you're a turkey - a pretty fair definition of stupidity.
 
I'm not denigrating shelf stacking. I've done the job myself in the past. You will note I mentioned shelf stacking 'for example' and stated it was an 'important function within society'. I could have used any job as an example. Neither did I suggest or imply that those on low pay lacked intelligence, or that anyone wasn't entitled to an opinion, or make any anti-democratic comment. I certainly didn't imply that only those with a high IQ should be able to vote.

You've apparently made quite a lot up. I stick by my own opinion that the MD of a successful UK business probably has a better idea of the implications of a no deal Brexit than someone who has never had to make decisions on how their business is run. If you disagree, perhaps you could explain why?

Fair enough.

Rightly or wrongly, the decision of every individual is equal when casting a vote.

I am not disagreeing with you that this same MD could be more informed but, it would be very patronising towards anyone else to infer that they did not have the ability to make an informed decision based purely on employment. (and , let's face it, most of the politicians got their thinking wrong when going for a referendum thinking we would all vote to stay - were they poorly informed or just in the wrong job? )
 
To say the value of the opinion of a person who performs a manual job, and whose knowledge base doesn't include business, is equal to that of a person who has learned how at least one business works on the subject of how any given change will affect that business is simply wrong.
But that isn't what I said Paul, is it. I gave as an example the recent MD of Tesco who started out as a shelf stacker. Equally, it could be said that there are many MDs who couldn't run a bath.

What a shame then that those advocating stay were not a little more vociferous in their arguments prior to that idiot Cameron instigating this whole mess in the first place. If being IN is such milk and honey then why put the whole thing to the electorate who clearly don't know what they want? (and May went and repeated the nonsense by holding a general election)
 
I'm not denigrating shelf stacking. I've done the job myself in the past. You will note I mentioned shelf stacking 'for example' and stated it was an 'important function within society'. I could have used any job as an example. Neither did I suggest or imply that those on low pay lacked intelligence, or that anyone wasn't entitled to an opinion, or make any anti-democratic comment. I certainly didn't imply that only those with a high IQ should be able to vote.

You've apparently made quite a lot up. I stick by my own opinion that the MD of a successful UK business probably has a better idea of the implications of a no deal Brexit than someone who has never had to make decisions on how their business is run.

The MD probably does know wel no he doesn’t he knows what he wants or what he’s been told. It probably will be a very nervy time for him and other businesses but until we are fully out no one will have a scooby to the full extent of our exist from EU, now I know you may argue this statement Pete but if people sat back and looked at everything surrounding brexit then if they’re honest they will admit until we leave the Troy outcome of brexit will not be known.
But with Donald jumping on the band wagon with his views on brexit then we ought to listen......then on second thoughts he would probably want a wall around the coastline of Britain, so nah forget listening to that t**t.
 
[/QUOTE]
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if people sat back and looked at everything surrounding brexit then if they’re honest they will admit until we leave the Troy outcome of brexit will not be known.

My dear man, the outcome of brexit is known. Reduced investment, production and jobs. Paying more for prescriptions, longer waiting to see a doctor, reduced social services (no-one to wipe my a**e or clean up your dribble), no job security, education for them that pay.

A poorer, even meaner-spirited country where the word of Johnson or farrage is worshipped by dumb fuckers who like to think they share something with those privileged public schoolboys who have never done an honest day's work in their lives.

Unlike you, or me.
 
But you're just making my point for me Baz. No-one knows what will happen, yet you are happy to leap headlong into the unknown. Maybe you have nothing to lose, but others potentially do.
With a hint of sarcasm to avoid any misunderstanding or misinterpretation, does this not justify some on the Leave side point re: not believing experts? If no one knows what will happen when we leave, why listen to experts who cannot conclusively say what will/may happen?

As I say, there is sarcasm to my post in case one misunderstands or misinterprets.
 
Even your boy Mogg reckons it will take 50 years for the UK economy to recover from brexit.

The vast majority of opinion from people whose job is to study business or economics believe jobs, revenue and standards of living will fall drastically.

Why are you so keen to leave, what's the upside for you, rightist fellow-traveller?
 
I’ll never understand why ordinary people who aren’t particularly wealthy or educated like Johnson or Farage, rich entitled upper middle class men who are very obviously just in it for themselves and who support dismantling the NHS. Is it because they think they’re some sort of nice Stephen Fry character?
 
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Jokiness understood! Depends what subject they're expert in. In my example, the MD of a haulage company could reasonably be expected to know more about the haulage industry than a manager in an insurance firm.

I think it's just too cynical to assume that some/most/all experts shouldn't be listened to on the basis that they cannot be certain of outcomes. Their knowledge levels of their own sectors must at least worth be listening to, and their concerns likewise.

On the other hand, I don't accept that regurgitating phrases like 'I reckon we will get deals quickly and easily' based on no knowledge at all is dangerously naive. And I have heard plenty of phrases like this on here and elsewhere.

You appeased this s**t and it ate you.
 
Jokiness understood! Depends what subject they're expert in. In my example, the MD of a haulage company could reasonably be expected to know more about the haulage industry than a manager in an insurance firm.

I think it's just too cynical to assume that some/most/all experts shouldn't be listened to on the basis that they cannot be certain of outcomes. Their knowledge levels of their own sectors must at least worth be listening to, and their concerns likewise.

On the other hand, I don't accept that regurgitating phrases like 'I reckon we will get deals quickly and easily' based on no knowledge at all is dangerously naive. And I have heard plenty of phrases like this on here and elsewhere.
They could of course, but equally, they also have their own implicit bias or desired result. The CBI need to be listened to, but also understood they desire continuity and no change because it makes things easier for them - and their view removes the passion of the real world. So what they say to be taken with the same pinch of salt Boris did with the bus. Etc

Equally, they do not represent all businesses either.
 
There's something in the British psyche that means some people will always admire those who sound posh or educated, irrespective of what they are actually saying. It's an unhealthy deference.
Yes! It’s an instinctive forelock-tugging to posh people.
 
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