Manager/Coach Robbo out. Thread number 2

[Brahma]

We seem to go round and round in circles with what we demand from a manager. Thankfully we end up normally back at the same place, a fanbase that demands attacking, entertaining football.

Karl deserves another go. He is on a positive trajectory with our club as those stats suggest. Let's seriously take Play-Offs as an achievement in the schemes of those stats as opposed to the semantics of losing a semi and a final etc.

Oxford
17/18 – 16th saved from relegation
18/19 – 12th
19/20 – 4th on PPG lost PO final
20/21 – 6th lost PO semi finals
21/22- TBC (currently 8th with 4 games to go)

He has had his best squad to date but the frustration for me is the bemoaning about Baldock who we struck gold with (in FEB as a free agent) and injuries to big players (he infers Marcus Browne). That said, the decision making in and around DEC/JAN has killed us, with the inability to replace Gorrin and get our defence sorted. Regardless of budget he'll be afforded next season, the club first team management - not just Karl as there are others involved - need to address the balance of the squad and then spend in the attacking areas.

I appreciate players get the chance to play in different positions, for a variety of reasons during any given game but seeing Billy Bodin sit with Herbie Kane as our two holding/quarterback midfielders in the second half on Sunderland, demonstrates the above point.

We have had a superb attacking squad this season, having enjoyed some of the best entertaining football under Karl but now he needs to be allowed to final address the areas in the team that have let us down.

We should have a good few departures in the Summer and I would allow CAM to go (assume he's been promised that) and reinvest some of that money in the first team replacements. I'd try and convince Sykes to stay but if he's off and checked out, so be it, replace him with better.

 

[WokinghamYellow]

A lot of people seem to think
Ipswich will do well for promotion next season. That’s with a manager who has 4 months experience

 

[Thomas/Brock/Jones]

A lot of people seem to think
Ipswich will do well for promotion next season. That’s with a manager who has 4 months experience

And a top two budget

 

[werthersoriginal]

A lot of people seem to think
Ipswich will do well for promotion next season. That’s with a manager who has 4 months experience

Yes they seem to have found a good one there. But Lambert didn't work out, or Paul Cook - so that's a couple of years they've lost

 

[Paul Cannell]

I'm not sure how play-off final. play-off semi, and no play-offs will be progress, although I hope to be surprised and see some this season.

I don't understand how Karl "needs to be allowed to final address the areas in the team that have let us down." - the only thing that's been stopping him is himself. The last 2 seasons we've had horribly unbalanced squads with players we can't keep match fit in midfield and a feeble attack; this year the policy (or accident) of playing with 4 defenders and expecting them to get through a season has been exposed.

The budget was apparently there in January. How did that go? We got a long-term player who we broke by bringing him back too early, a long-term kid, a like for like defender and a good attacker with injury history who is injured. No cover for the defence. On our biggest chance to promote to date.

The board, who are minted and putting shitloads of money into the club, need to consider if they can trust Karl to recruit a balanced squad with strength in depth and strength in mind to get promoted and take appropriate action now.

It's dispiritingly unambitious to be satisfied with bumping along playing lovely football half the time and being out-thought and out-muscled the rest of it. This is Oxford United's great opportunity to become a club that's respected for winning at a higher level of the league.

 

[TailsWeWin]

A lot of people seem to think
Ipswich will do well for promotion next season. That’s with a manager who has 4 months experience

They will.

 

[Joey]

A lot of people seem to think
Ipswich will do well for promotion next season. That’s with a manager who has 4 months experience

Probably based on what he's done so far where he's turned them into a decent team who are incredibly solid defensively, only 8 goals conceded in 19 games is a great base to build off. I wasn't impressed with them in the first half against us but at half time it seemed he'd worked out how to stop us, ie don't let the wingbacks have any space to play out and force us to lump it, and from there we were very fortunate to get a point. They do seem to have dropped off a bit recently, whether that's the new manager bounce wearing off or a realisation their season is over and a drop off in levels/trying new systems etc I don't know.

I mentioned earlier in the thread a couple of other names, Steven Schumacher at Plymouth hadn't managed before this season and has got 1.91 points per game (87.86 over a 46 game season), Kieran McKenna hadn't managed at senior level and has won 1.89 ppg (86.94 over a season) and Liam Manning had only had one season in the Belgium second tier before joining MK Dons in August after the season had started and he's averaged bang on 2 ppg. All younger and vastly less experienced than Robbo (1.64 ppg /75.44 over a season) and in all cases have come in when the season had already started so they were working with what was already in the building with only January to tweak anything. If the argument for keeping Robinson is for continuity then you have to concede that he's had a massive advantage of having several years to shape the squad how he sees fit.

I don't pretend to know all about budgets etc and can well imagine Ipswich have underperformed theirs but are Plymouth's and MK's that much bigger than ours, especially with the money we spent and were apparently willing to spend in January?

 

[RyanioBirdio]

Yes they seem to have found a good one there. But Lambert didn't work out, or Paul Cook - so that's a couple of years they've lost

And so rather than sticking with something that wasn’t working (for what they wanted) they corrected course.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

The problem of course is that having KR as manager 'almost' works, so there is a tendency to say 'if he can just correct x, y or z then he is a winner'.

I am starting to think that is a triumph of hope over experience though.

 

[werthersoriginal]

And so rather than sticking with something that wasn’t working (for what they wanted) they corrected course.

Yes exactly, I just meant that they didn't get it right first time - changing isn't guaranteed to work, though there's probably an unknown out there who would be brilliant.

 

[Joey]

The problem of course is that having KR as manager 'almost' works, so there is a tendency to say 'if he can just correct x, y or z then he is a winner'.

I am starting to think that is a triumph of hope over experience though.

This is certainly part of it. No one could say he's an outright bad manager as he gets a lot right, but there's enough he gets wrong to always hold us back and it's not new mistakes. If he were as inept as Clotet then it would be an easy decision whereas sacking him would certainly take a bit of guts as he has shown himself to be a competent manager at this level. The fact that we score so many goals and he is great around the community also buys him plenty of favour, I've loved a lot of the games this season and it's easier to be forgiving when you're seeing us on the wrong end of 5 goal thrillers, at least until you realise how many times it's happened.

It depends where your ambitions lie. I haven't checked what the feeling is amongst certain posters and I might well be talking out my hoop but I wonder if there might be a correlation between really wanting to keep Robbo and also wanting to sign Brown in the summer, ie sticking with what you know because the replacement might be worse and will almost definitely be unknown, despite the issues with what you already have.

 

[RyanioBirdio]

Yes exactly, I just meant that they didn't get it right first time - changing isn't guaranteed to work, though there's probably an unknown out there who would be brilliant.

We replaced Appleton with Clotet and then corrected course and most people seem happy with the second bloke who got a go. Didn’t get it right first time and the second appointment that is deemed to have gone well wasn’t “an unknown” either. Why would it be an unknown anyway? Why couldn’t it be somebody that many people would know who the board thinks will fit what they want and what is on offer, after conducting a full and proper process? Why is it up to Joe Bloggs to name somebody and then pretend that they can see into the future? You’re allowed to say that turning left is the wrong thing to do, even if you can’t say whether turning right or going straight on instead is the correct alternative. If you firmly believe you’re going the wrong way then why would you put your foot down?

Also, don’t forget that it equally took two managers after Wilder to get it right, with Appleton following Waddock, and even then that first season was pretty ropey. He (rightly, which even he admits now) took a kicking for refusing to change his approach even when it clearly wasn’t working, but he quickly learned from it and brought success in his second season. This is the most stable and well-backed the club has been in decades behind the scenes, which is a luxury few managers have had post-Maxwell. So it would be ‘safer’ to make a change in a period like this than when you have instability, an owner trying to bail out or somebody pulling the plug on funding, as we’ve had many times before.

The question some people are asking themselves is, “Would I personally rather the club stick with a man who just can’t and won’t get promotion, because even if he gets the team into the playoffs he’s simply not capable of winning them and the team won’t handle three games against the best sides in the division, as his playoff record across both Oxford and MK seems to prove, or would I rather see if someone else can go one better with the stability and the resources that the club has to offer? Would I rather the club have no chance at promotion because glorious failure is all it’s geared towards, or would I rather have some chance at promotion even though it’s far from guaranteed?” I don’t think it’s any more complex than that, whatever side of the fence people are on. Some people think it’s like driving down a road that you know doesn’t go anywhere and only loops you back around to the start eventually, and others think we’re only a turn away from cracking it. The question is how many times does the turn have to be missed before more and more people agree that the person driving the car is never going to find it, no matter how jolly their sing-songs are? How many loops is too many?

I don’t personally believe that Robinson is capable of promotion, because he just won’t sign any defenders and the more people start to comment on his Achilles heel the more he will dig in out of stubbornness, so for me he’ll never see the turn. He’s already signed Forde up for another year to pretend he’s a genuine right back option (although I do like Forde and think he generally does okay because he’s a fantastic pro, that won’t ultimately help or improve anything) so it feels like the stall has already been set out in that regard. Nicky Cadden is a left winger turned hyper attacking wing back (and I do mean a proper bomber of a wing back, not even remotely a full back) who will be passed off as a second left back option if all goes to plan on that one, so that would be both full back spots patched up with wingers again if that’s the case. The one time Robinson got promoted as a manager he had the third best defence in the league and it was built on two 30+ year olds, a 28 year old bruiser and so many full backs that he loaned Baldock out, so it makes absolutely no sense to me that does this stuff but there we go. Nobody could describe that MK team he got promoted as boring or defensive either - it just had quality, experience and a tiny bit of depth at the back to look after itself. He does the hard stuff and then messes it up because he would rather have a sixth winger than a second left back, or a seventh central midfielder rather than using the salary to afford a great centre half rather than a pretty decent one. These are the difference makers. He is so agonisingly close but just can’t bring himself to do it.

Essentially, it’s like watching somebody build a beautiful church that makes people gasp on a sunny day, and then simply refusing to put a proper supporting pillar in place because they want to spend some of the budget on another piece of stained glass. It looks fabulous, but eventually it starts cracking and then the entire thing gets closed down for repairs. Then some of the repair money gets spent on another piece of glass, and repeat.

Anyway, that’s my fifty pence. I could be totally wrong and we might be about to go on a barnstorming run of four wins that secures a playoff spot on the final day, leading to a Wembley promotion next month after three immaculately clean sheets. Or perhaps next season will be the one - maybe we’ll even see a swashbuckling, champagne-fuelled season of sun, sex and samba that secures automatic promotion at a canter, and leaves everybody who even sets foot near Grenoble Road needing to change their pants several times on a match day. Which suits me just fine, because I’ve secretly been going commando on a number of occasions over the last month, and it’s made me feel more alive than ever.

All I would say, whatever people think and whatever their opinion regarding Robinson, is that nobody should fall into the trap of supporting any individual over the football club. Whenever he eventually leaves, and whether it be his choice or the club’s when that day comes, Oxford United carries on. By all means like him and rate him (or not as the case may be), but the club is and will always be bigger than him or anybody else. We’ve had more successful managers than him in the past (even in the last decade let alone long before), and even after they left the world kept on turning. It’s all a bit… intense at times. He’s just a football manager.

He’s here at the start of next season anyway, so let’s see what things look like come the end of August. Until then, I reckon I’ll go to Fleetwood on Friday, but I’ll be in no mood for any of their Captain Pugwash bullshit.

 

[Carpy]

With Robinson struggling to build teams that are organised and hard to break down, is it lost on people what would happen should the unlikely happen and Robinson take us up, we'd be absolutely torn apart in our first season if we don't show at least a modicum of defensive knowhow. Are we really suggesting we allow Robinson to get us up (I'm not convinced he can) and then sack him to get someone in that can actually make an effort to keep us there.

The board, and then by extension, the fans, need Oxford to be a championship side in order to make a stadium financially viable for the new board, there's a reason the deadline is next season.

 

[werthersoriginal]

We replaced Appleton with Clotet and then corrected course and most people seem happy with the second bloke who got a go. Didn’t get it right first time and the second appointment that is deemed to have gone well wasn’t “an unknown” either. Why would it be an unknown anyway? Why couldn’t it be somebody that many people would know who the board thinks will fit what they want and what is on offer, after conducting a full and proper process? Why is it up to Joe Bloggs to name somebody and then pretend that they can see into the future? You’re allowed to say that turning left is the wrong thing to do, even if you can’t say whether turning right or going straight on instead is the correct alternative. If you firmly believe you’re going the wrong way then why would you put your foot down?

Also, don’t forget that it equally took two managers after Wilder to get it right, with Appleton following Waddock, and even then that first season was pretty ropey. He (rightly, which even he admits now) took a kicking for refusing to change his approach even when it clearly wasn’t working, but he quickly learned from it and brought success in his second season. This is the most stable and well-backed the club has been in decades behind the scenes, which is a luxury few managers have had post-Maxwell. So it would be ‘safer’ to make a change in a period like this than when you have instability, an owner trying to bail out or somebody pulling the plug on funding, as we’ve had many times before.

The question some people are asking themselves is, “Would I personally rather the club stick with a man who just can’t and won’t get promotion, because even if he gets the team into the playoffs he’s simply not capable of winning them and the team won’t handle three games against the best sides in the division, as his playoff record across both Oxford and MK seems to prove, or would I rather see if someone else can go one better with the stability and the resources that the club has to offer? Would I rather the club have no chance at promotion because glorious failure is all it’s geared towards, or would I rather have some chance at promotion even though it’s far from guaranteed?” I don’t think it’s any more complex than that, whatever side of the fence people are on. Some people think it’s like driving down a road that you know doesn’t go anywhere and only loops you back around to the start eventually, and others think we’re only a turn away from cracking it. The question is how many times does the turn have to be missed before more and more people agree that the person driving the car is never going to find it, no matter how jolly their sing-songs are? How many loops is too many?

I don’t personally believe that Robinson is capable of promotion, because he just won’t sign any defenders and the more people start to comment on his Achilles heel the more he will dig in out of stubbornness, so for me he’ll never see the turn. He’s already signed Forde up for another year to pretend he’s a genuine right back option (although I do like Forde and think he generally does okay because he’s a fantastic pro, that won’t ultimately help or improve anything) so it feels like the stall has already been set out in that regard. Nicky Cadden is a left winger turned hyper attacking wing back (and I do mean a proper bomber of a wing back, not even remotely a full back) who will be passed off as a second left back option if all goes to plan on that one, so that would be both full back spots patched up with wingers again if that’s the case. The one time Robinson got promoted as a manager he had the third best defence in the league and it was built on two 30+ year olds, a 28 year old bruiser and so many full backs that he loaned Baldock out, so it makes absolutely no sense to me that does this stuff but there we go. Nobody could describe that MK team he got promoted as boring or defensive either - it just had quality, experience and a tiny bit of depth at the back to look after itself. He does the hard stuff and then messes it up because he would rather have a sixth winger than a second left back, or a seventh central midfielder rather than using the salary to afford a great centre half rather than a pretty decent one. These are the difference makers. He is so agonisingly close but just can’t bring himself to do it.

Essentially, it’s like watching somebody build a beautiful church that makes people gasp on a sunny day, and then simply refusing to put a proper supporting pillar in place because they want to spend some of the budget on another piece of stained glass. It looks fabulous, but eventually it starts cracking and then the entire thing gets closed down for repairs. Then some of the repair money gets spent on another piece of glass, and repeat.

Anyway, that’s my fifty pence. I could be totally wrong and we might be about to go on a barnstorming run of four wins that secures a playoff spot on the final day, leading to a Wembley promotion next month after three immaculately clean sheets. Or perhaps next season will be the one - maybe we’ll even see a swashbuckling, champagne-fuelled season of sun, sex and samba that secures automatic promotion at a canter, and leaves everybody who even sets foot near Grenoble Road needing to change their pants several times on a match day. Which suits me just fine, because I’ve secretly been going commando on a number of occasions over the last month, and it’s made me feel more alive than ever.

All I would say, whatever people think and whatever their opinion regarding Robinson, is that nobody should fall into the trap of supporting any individual over the football club. Whenever he eventually leaves, and whether it be his choice or the club’s when that day comes, Oxford United carries on. By all means like him and rate him (or not as the case may be), but the club is and will always be bigger than him or anybody else. We’ve had more successful managers than him in the past (even in the last decade let alone long before), and even after they left the world kept on turning. It’s all a bit… intense at times. He’s just a football manager.

He’s here at the start of next season anyway, so let’s see what things look like come the end of August. Until then, I reckon I’ll go to Fleetwood on Friday, but I’ll be in no mood for any of their Captain Pugwash bullshit.

TLDR ... but yeah the bits I read made sense. I guess it depends on the owners' urgency and priorities. You could say that Karl has done his job well - established us as a top League One club, forged links with the community, increased attendances, made money by bringing on players to sell - and someone harder and more pragmatic might be required to get us over the line. But I don't think he *deserves* to lose his job at the moment.

 

[RyanioBirdio]

TLDR

Who the hell do you think you are? Admin Ste?

 

[werthersoriginal]

With Robinson struggling to build teams that are organised and hard to break down, is it lost on people what would happen should the unlikely happen and Robinson take us up, we'd be absolutely torn apart in our first season if we don't show at least a modicum of defensive knowhow. Are we really suggesting we allow Robinson to get us up (I'm not convinced he can) and then sack him to get someone in that can actually make an effort to keep us there.

The board, and then by extension, the fans, need Oxford to be a championship side in order to make a stadium financially viable for the new board, there's a reason the deadline is next season.

Maybe I'm cynical, but we won't be in a new ground for five years, surely the optimum time to get promoted is say three years from now?

 

[Carpy]

Maybe I'm cynical, but we won't be in a new ground for five years, surely the optimum time to get promoted is say three years from now?

Think about trying to secure funding, sponsorship etc.

 

[OX14]

Maybe I'm cynical, but we won't be in a new ground for five years, surely the optimum time to get promoted is say three years from now?

No. The extra revenue from TV, sponsorship and being able to build the global brand even more is why they want promotion by next season. The stadium will come along ready for when the kassam license runs out but we don't need the stadium right away for when we're promoted. A full house of 11500 every game in the championship and a board willing to fund us on the account of a new stadium being ready for the start of the 2026/2027 season is how we will survive.

 

[SirAndyOfCrosby]

Thanks @RyanioBirdio for the MK pointer.
As someone who wasn't paying much attention to what KR was doing with MK Dons 7 years ago, I just had a quick perusal of that promotion season.
Makes for interesting reading:

KR had 6 players start at least 39 League games for him that season - so he may have got lucky with injuries or perhaps just knew his best side!

His keeper, David Martin, played 39 times (looks like he was out for a month or so in Feb/March - all in one gap which suggests an injury).

The other 5 players to play 39+ were all defenders or midfielders (and with the exception of Alli could all be regarded as defence minded)?
- Anthony Kay - 45 League One starts
- Dean Lewington - 41
- Kyle McFadzean - 41
- Darren Potter - 40
- Dele Alli - 39

This season we only have 1 player that has started 39 League Games thus far - Matty Taylor, and only 1 other who yet can - Cam Bran (currently on 37).

Whether or not that is down to bad luck with injury or over-rotation and changing of tactics is up for debate, but the fact that KR's one promotion to his name came with such a settled side, particularly defensively, suggests that is what we would need for him to do it again.

 

[Joey]

No. The extra revenue from TV, sponsorship and being able to build the global brand even more is why they want promotion by next season. The stadium will come along ready for when the kassam license runs out but we don't need the stadium right away for when we're promoted. A full house of 11500 every game in the championship and a board willing to fund us on the account of a new stadium being ready for the start of the 2026/2027 season is how we will survive.

Agreed, no reason at all not to go for it now as long as it is within reason financially of course. The Wycombe fan on here mentioned their squad now is better than the one that went up funded by a season in the Championship and that was with no fans. Even if we come down again we're better placed to go straight back up.