National News Brexit - the Deal or No Deal poll

[Essexyellows]

So with the caveat that I hate the concept of a referendum in general, because that's not how our democracy has been designed......

…...my understanding of a Confirmatory referendum is very different to what's being debated in the last few pages of this thread.

My understanding is that a Confirmatory referendum simply offers the people one piece of legislation to vote on - which is this case would be BoJo's Withdrawal Agreement. Do you agree with the UK enacting this piece of legislation? And the result is legally binding.

If the answer comes back Yes, then we leave the European Union on that basis. No ifs, no buts, no arguments.

If the answer comes back No......then the issue is thrown back to parliament to try again. No to a Confirmatory referendum does not mean revoking Article 50 (unless MPs vote to do so) and does not mean No Deal (unless MPs vote for it, or the EU refuses continued extensions).


If we really have to hold a referendum of any type (and that ship obviously sailed long ago on Brexit), then a Confirmatory referendum does seem to have the twin benefits of specificity and being legally binding. I struggle to see too many other arguments against it (other than exhaustion with Brexit in general)

This is the only way to do it. It brings it back on a par with `75. "We have negotiated this deal........... Yes or No?"

However what scuppers it is the possibility that we will have left if no extension is granted and Parliament are still fudging about.

 

[YellowTaxi]

I mean the decisions by the Electoral Commission that vote Leave cheated.


Meanwhile Johnson is trying to get the country to sign on the dotted line before we’ve had a chance to read the small print.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1186543125625561088

What a bunch of charlatans.

And don’t you Brexit fans have a little bit of shame? you claim it’s such a noble project and yet your side is behaving like a dodgy second hand car dealer trying to get the new deal out the door with as little scrutiny as possible.

 

[YellowTaxi]

At least you must agree that after 3 1/2 years that this certainly hasn't been rushed?

Who cheated on what in that election? Is there electoral fraud you have found? Or do you mean the Govt propaganda that landed on our doorsteps?

Johnson’s new deal is rushed. He tried to close down parliament to stop debate, then he sold the DUP down the river - there’s going to be customs charges on goods coming from Northern Ireland to Great Britain. Surprised @Ox4Eva hasn’t had something to say about that.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

THIS version of brexit most certainly has been rushed. You cannot expect the 125 page (plus annex)culmination of those 3.5 years to be rammed through Parliament in 3 days, surely.

And therein lies the problem with a poorly designed referendum and a poorly designed (non-existant) idea of HOW the result was to be delivered.

It's clear that the people who are still saying "just get it done" are not bothered about details. But the absolute devil of this issue is entirely in the detail.

We are doing ourselves a massive disservice as a civilised and developed country to not give it the extremely careful consideration that a decision of such gravity deserves.

Which is why I am dumbfounded by the suggestion of going back and asking people if this version was what they were expecting in 2016, is such a bad and anti democratic idea.

A couple of examples for you which illustrate precisely WHY very careful consideration is required.

Firstly - Stephen Barclay's abject performance yesterday when not even he, as brexit secretary, could describe customs arrangements on the Island of Ireland after Brexit...does this not worry you a bit?

Second - I was in a meeting with hauliers, exporters and brokers yesterday. Quite frankly they are crapping it because of the level of confusion, complication of what will be required for imports and exports, lack of support for things that might go wrong and sheer amount of documentation they will have to produce as a result of a no deal exit (still the government's official postion do not forget). Under no deal, multiple copies of documentation will have to be carried if a load is being transported across several national boundaries. The documentation will need to be made available on request at each border crossing and will need to be produced at both the customs office of departure and that of destination until such time that they can achieve trusted trader status (which has not been defined in any great detail)at which point they could do the checks at point of loading and at destination. Current common practice within the EU is that docs are sent with a load and are not checked at the border provided they comply with EU requirements. They are normally sealed up with the load in the back of the lorry and not touched until they arrive at their final destination. Under no deal arrangements, the lorry driver will have to carry multiple copies of said documentation...and this really worries exporters and hauliers who struggle to get drivers to submit accurate fuel and tachometer records!! The potential for errors and delays is clear.

In the general Q&A session afterwards, someone asked "why are we doing this to ourselves?

Understandably, based on this level of detail from both HMRC and the Border Delivery Group, it was not surprising that there was a high level of agreement and sympathy for this sentiment.

If those on the frontline with greatest exposure to the immediate risk are saying this, does that not set alarm bells ringing?

This was always going to be a difficult and complex decision to make and we owe it to ourselves and our economy not to dumb this down any further than we already have.

 

[ljs]

As for another Referendum, the fact that no has really worked out a) what is legal b) what is fair c) who decides on what is voted on d) when we vote e) who can vote on it f) what type of referendum it is, says a lot about the whole idea. An ill conceived mess.

Considering how much Leaves are criticised for being flippant about No Deal, talking of a referendum without a single thought, for on example, on what the electoral commission will allow is worse.

Pretty simple really to work out what it should ask:

Part A - Leave or Remain.

Part B - if we leave, what is the preferred option:
No deal or Governments negotiated deal.

So, if from part a the majority vote to remain, then remain. If the majority vote to leave, then whichever of the two leave options has the most votes happens.

Should be simple enough for the electorate to understand.

As said by many people, many times previously, the vast majority of the public now know far more about what leaving means than they did 3 years ago.

 

[ljs]

At least you must agree that after 3 1/2 years that this certainly hasn't been rushed?

Who cheated on what in that election? Is there electoral fraud you have found? Or do you mean the Govt propaganda that landed on our doorsteps?

I think he was referring to the 3 days of debate. There could have been more if Boris hadn't wanted everyone to go on holiday...

 

[Sheik djibouti]

I think he was referring to the 3 days of debate. There could have been more if Boris hadn't wanted everyone to go on holiday...

Quite

Closing down opportunity for debate because it does not fit with your desired outcome is an extremely dangerous precedent to set and a very slippery slope to embark upon, which is why I for one am extremely grateful to the Supreme Court for their intervention and judgement on this issue. If there is any move by this or subsequent governments to try and dilute the influence of the judicial system, then we really are in for trouble!

 

[YellowTaxi]

You have to remember that even Johnson's brother and sister don't trust him.

He was fired twice for lying, as a Journalist at the Times and when he was a member of Michael Howard's government. He's a serial womaniser, who has some very dodgy financial backers. He wasted 50 million pounds of public money on an unbuilt garden bridge - with millions going to friends of his. His stunt to close down parliament was found to be illegal.

You wouldn't trust him with your girlfriend or your wallet. Why are you trusting him to rush therough one of the most momentous decisions the country's going to make - in three days.

 

[SteMerritt]

 

[Essexyellows]

I mean the decisions by the Electoral Commission that vote Leave cheated.


Meanwhile Johnson is trying to get the country to sign on the dotted line before we’ve had a chance to read the small print.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1186543125625561088

What a bunch of charlatans.

And don’t you Brexit fans have a little bit of shame? you claim it’s such a noble project and yet your side is behaving like a dodgy second hand car dealer trying to get the new deal out the door with as little scrutiny as possible.

Hate to be dull and spoil the party but IIRC we have to legally leave on the 31st of October, unless granted an extension by all other member states?

Perhaps if Parliament hadn`t engaged in some prolonged and, ultimately, weak negotiations for 3 years, and then came back saying "Thats it, we can`t change from this" we would be further forward than we are? Ironic that Boris managed to gain some movement albeit imperfect in everyones eyes.

Until there is a deadline to meet peoples minds wander....... a bit of sharp focus and a few long sessions might crack them into shape.

Its not "3 days" it`s been three feckin years!

 

[YellowTaxi]

So tell me the provisions of the latest deal with regard to British citizens living in
Poland for example?

 

[YellowTaxi]

“It’s been three years get on with it mate” is only an acceptable answer for someone who Brexit willl make no immediate difference too.
Which suggests it’s a vanity project for you.

The re are 4 million British citizens who live in the Eu. You’re happy to decide their future in a bill which not only you haven’t read your Parliamentary representatives haven’t read either. Because you’re treating Brexit like it’s a queue for the toilet at closing time.

 

[Essexyellows]

“It’s been three years get on with it mate” is only an acceptable answer for someone who Brexit willl make no immediate difference too.
Which suggests it’s a vanity project for you.

The re are 4 million British citizens who live in the Eu. You’re happy to decide their future in a bill which not only you haven’t read your Parliamentary representatives haven’t read either. Because you’re treating Brexit like it’s a queue for the toilet at closing time.

Well that was hard to find..... "You may need to register or apply for residency, check if you’re covered for healthcare, and exchange your UK driving licence for a licence issued by the EU country where you live. "

Living in country guides

Advice for UK nationals living abroad, including residency, health and benefits, and specific advice for people following the UK's departure from the EU.

www.gov.uk

And, amazingly, EU citizens here need to do the same.

Apply to the EU Settlement Scheme (settled and pre-settled status)

The EU Settlement Scheme for EU citizens and their families to remain in the UK after it leaves the EU ('Brexit'): who's eligible, how to apply, how much it costs.

www.gov.uk

Its one of the things that Verhofstadt is whining about, "no deportation for those who miss the deadline".................... because they have been living in cave with no access to the outside world I would guess?

 

[Essexyellows]

There you go..... 115 pages or so. https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2019-2020/0007/20007.pdf

 

[YellowTaxi]

Don’t be a bigger fool than you already seem.

“You may need to..” that’s really precise isn’t it. And you may not be allowed to. It may cost you a large amount of money , or mean that you’re separated from your family or your kids.

And you may encounter a bloke on a message board who thinks that posting a link to a 115 page document -with appendices which was published yesterday is somehow an acceptable way to respond to criticism.

You don’t know what’s in the document. But because the Daily Express is saying “Get on with it “ you really don’t care. If you were serious about wanting Brexit to work you’d agree that it needed proper scrutiny, instead you’d treatinb Brexit like one of those toys every child wants at Christmas you re quite happy to buy a knockoff Brexit with no batteries which will fall apart on Boxing Day as long as you can pretend you did something.

What shocks me about the way you lot are now behaving is how unpatriotic you are. You don’t seem to care about the future of this country or its people as long as you’ve got a big box labelled Brexit. Who cares what’s in it?

 

[Essexyellows]

Don’t be a bigger fool than you already seem.

“You may need to..” that’s really precise isn’t it. And you may not be allowed to. It may cost you a large amount of money , or mean that you’re separated from your family or your kids.

And you may encounter a bloke on a message board who thinks that posting a link to a 115 page document -with appendices which was published yesterday is somehow an acceptable way to respond to criticism.

You don’t know what’s in the document. But because the Daily Express is saying “Get on with it “ you really don’t care. If you were serious about wanting Brexit to work you’d agree that it needed proper scrutiny, instead you’d treatinb Brexit like one of those toys every child wants at Christmas you re quite happy to buy a knockoff Brexit with no batteries which will fall apart on Boxing Day as long as you can pretend you did something.

What shocks me about the way you lot are now behaving is how unpatriotic you are. You don’t seem to care about the future of this country or its people as long as you’ve got a big box labelled Brexit. Who cares what’s in it?

At some stage we must leave the EU. Preservation of democracy, will of the people call it what you wish.

It was/is never going to be easy, the EU has had 40+ years to embed/entangle itself into our lives.

I am patriotic in that I believe the UK can get on just fine without carrying the leech that is the EU.

It produces nothing but costs us billions....for what? A vanity project that wants "everyone to be equal"..... sorry life isn`t like that, there are always those at the top and those at the bottom.

I don`t read the Express, or the Mail et al thanks. I probably listen to too many Parliament debates via their TV channels. I do realise that there has to be a compromise, a deal however there also has to be a deadline to the years of malaise and inactivity. That is where the time has gone.

And I don`t feel the need to belittle those who chose to remain, they just came second.

 

[Ox4Eva]

Johnson’s new deal is rushed. He tried to close down parliament to stop debate, then he sold the DUP down the river - there’s going to be customs charges on goods coming from Northern Ireland to Great Britain. Surprised @Ox4Eva hasn’t had something to say about that.

What's the point...

 

[YellowTaxi]

“Carrying the leech that is the Eu”

What exactly do you mean by that?
Nor have you explained why you think it’s acceptable that this final agreement is rushed through. If you think your cause is just you would understand the need for proper scrutiny.

Or are you saying that you don’t trust the EU but you do trust Boris Johnson?

 

[Essexyellows]

“Carrying the leech that is the Eu”

What exactly do you mean by that?
Nor have you explained why you think it’s acceptable that this final agreement is rushed through. If you think your cause is just you would understand the need for proper scrutiny.

Or are you saying that you don’t trust the EU but you do trust Boris Johnson?

We joined the EEC (that was a good thing), however since then and post Mastricht & Lisbon it has become a ruling body with a desire to create a United States of Europe at the cost of all the sovereign nations within it.
Given time that is what will happen as the EU will have governance over taxation, money, laws, regulations etc.
Simple diagrammatic.


So lots of changes many of which we have had little or no direct opportunity to vote on, barring electing a few MEP`s every 5 years that have no ability to influence anything especially against the established block votes.
When the opportunity arose 17.4 million folk decided that the current status and future direction of travel wasn`t for them.
And the other reason leaving is being made difficult is easily illustrated.


Somebody has to get us past leaving and into the trade negotiations, Boris has got that job.
I can`t say if I trust him anymore than any other stranger I don`t know.
If it was down to me any politician who wanted to be elected should have held down a real job for a set number of years, career politicians who have never worked are part of the reason we are in this mess!

 

[YellowTaxi]

You’ve posted a couple of nice diagrams but they don’t explain why you think the EU is “ a leech”. Nor do you explain why the fact that leaving is being made difficult. We contribute to the EU budget and we receive a fair amount in return both in funds for all kinds of thigs from regional development to medical research. We also do t have to ha e the massive customs and bureaucracy infrastructure we’re now having to develop
.
You’ve yet again failed to explain why you think it’s appropriate to rush through the details of the legislation determining our future relationship with the EU in 3 days without giving time for proper parliamentary scrutiny.