National News Brexit - the Deal or No Deal poll

[LowerSouth]

Corbyn for President of a United Ireland

 

[Sarge]

amused me ......

 

[Sarge]

bad loser? ......

Brexit: PM sends letter to Brussels seeking further delay

No 10 source says an accompanying letter makes clear Boris Johnson believes an extension would be a mistake.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Gary Baldi]

My family had a vote on whether we should move to Australia. I said ‘it will be brilliant, we’ll have a massive house, we’ll all get brilliant jobs and the town we live in will be lovely’ so we voted to move there, 5-4 in favour. We’ve now had a chance to go over there and check out the actual house we’d be buying, and see the town we’d be living in - wouldn’t it make sense to have another vote before we make the massive decision to up sticks and move - especially now we have much more information?

No-one in the leave campaign three years ago described anything like Boris’ deal, or said we may have to crash out without a deal, so a large percentage of people voted for a Brexit which simply cannot happen. To deny everyone another chance to vote now we have much, much more information on what we’re voting for is just being afraid that people won’t vote for Brexit now they see what it actually entails and you can’t make up fantasy scenarios like ‘it will be easy! We will save £350m just like that!’

But if you haven't even moved and just had a little bit of a recce at an Australian realtor website, how do you know what it will really be like? We voted to leave, not to have a 1 week "Wanted Down Under" experience where we might change our mind or still do it, and not have another vote. Cameron tried to have a week in Australia but the EU didn't want that.

As such, we voted to go to Australia and the minority are desperate to not even try to go to Australia because they don't like it and have such entitlement, that they think they can stop it all just because they demand it. The game doesn't work like that because you lost.

No one in either campaign said what would happen now, so it's fooey to even go there. Both sides lied, both sides didn't entirely have it scoped out, but we voted to leave, and we must before considering what next. So if Remainers don't like that, tough ?. To retro fit another vote to stop the first one is highly arrogant and self centred when both sides know that you would not have the same courtesy if the vote was the other way.

 

[Gary Baldi]

amused me ......

Except that workers rights are still up for grabs and always were. But...

 

[SteMerritt]

Both sides lied, both sides didn't entirely have it scoped out

That is the part which invalidates your entire argument. The vote was, in your words, based on lies, and on no thought of how to go forwards. Therefore another is needed. To say, after saying the first vote was won by lies and with a lack of information, we have to honour it before seeing where to go next, is frankly bonkers.

 

[RyanioBirdio]

That is the part which invalidates your entire argument. The vote was, in your words, based on lies, and on no thought of how to go forwards. Therefore another is needed. To say, after saying the first vote was won by lies and with a lack of information, we have to honour it before seeing where to go next, is frankly bonkers.

Yeah but APART from that.

 

[Essexyellows]

Where does a vote "based on lies" come into it?

Both sides put their arguments, the voters listened and made their choice.

Everyone had the same choice, to vote Leave or Remain .... or not vote at all.

The turnout was 72.2% and the electorate voted to Leave the EU.

It was always going to be complex untangling 40+ years of regulation and deals but that doesn`t mean it should not be done.

The first hurdle is accepting we are leaving, and that has been kicked along for 3+ years until Boris drew his line in the sand of the 31st October.

Once that hurdle is overcome, with the core negotiations done of retaining certain aspects and losing others, then the rest of the job can be done.

Another referendum? 22 weeks minimum to organise.

Remember it can only be a positive or a negative choice question so "Leave with an unknown deal" can`t be on it. What would the options be then?

Remain or Leave............ done that one.

A General Election would be a far better way of reinforcing the will of the Nation.

Tory`s for "getting on with it".

Lib-Dems for "binning it & rejoining".

Labour for ...... well who knows....

Uncle Nigel will have served his purpose and can go back to the sidelines.

 

[SteMerritt]

Where does a vote "based on lies" come into it?

... If you need to ask... ?

 

[Essexyellows]

... If you need to ask... ?

Do you truly believe that 72% of the population voted on what they read on "soshul mejia" or what as written on a bus?
Or maybe, just maybe, those folk who were wise enough to compare what the EEC was and what the EU has become and decided enough was enough?
I`m more than happy to leave with a deal, equally I would accept us leaving with No Deal ........ the key part is "Leave" and respect the will of the electorate.
The fact that that particular can has been kicked for 3 years isn`t justification for another referendum that will take 6 months to organise!

 

[pooshooter]

I got married and every day since I've thought to myself should I leave or remain, but I remain because the sex is great even though the cooking is awful...

 

[IsleofWightYellow]

It’s literally staggering to me that people are arguing against having another referendum.

1. It’s not a case of remain just trying to have another crack at it. The second referendum would be more detailed, confirming if people want Boris’ deal, May’s deal, No deal or remain. Parliament literally can’t agree on which is best, so why not let people choose? Otherwise lots of people will be getting a type of Brexit they didn’t vote for!

2. The Brexiteers arguing against it must only be against it in the case of remain winning. Well, if it does, doesn’t that mean we shouldn’t leave, as more people don’t want to leave than do? Isn’t that democracy?

3. Forget who lied and who didn’t. We voted on a hypothetical situation - leave or remain. We now know exactly what leave looks like - the specific deals, the detail, etc. In any situation, it makes sense to have another vote now the detail is fully known - doesn’t it? Even if remain wasn’t on the ballot, people should get a chance to choose which type of Brexit they want.

4. The vote was 3 years ago. It’s not a case of having another vote 3 months later - I agree that would be ridiculous. In those three years a lot has happened, a lot has been learned, a lot of views have changed. It’s not unreasonable to have a final confirmatory result three years later with much more information?

5. I guarantee you, if remain had won, and three years later we were still trying to negotiate a ‘remain agreement’ with the EU and it was looking like we would have to pay a lot of extra money to them and they would have a lot more control over us than the remain side had promised, Brexiteers would be demeaning another referendum as the situation was different from what had been promised - especially if there were a couple of options, say remain, or ‘super-remain’ where we stay but pay a load more money! I too would fully support a second referendum in that case - it would only be logical, just as it is now.

Most things in politics I can at least vaguely see both sides, but to all of those points, the only reason why you wouldn’t want a second referendum is that you want to leave above all else, including what’s logical, what’s fair, what’s right and what’s democratic. Ok that’s your choice, but don’t try and dress it up as anything other than that.

Let’s have a confirmatory referendum, scrutinise the deals on the table (or no deal, as some people do want that) in detail and whichever one is chosen, action it and I would fully support that. Just don’t hide behind the results of a referendum three years ago when we were told ‘it’s a simple in or out’ - No, there’s two apparently very different deals plus a no deal available!

 

[IsleofWightYellow]

Where does a vote "based on lies" come into it?

Both sides put their arguments, the voters listened and made their choice.

Everyone had the same choice, to vote Leave or Remain .... or not vote at all.

The turnout was 72.2% and the electorate voted to Leave the EU.

It was always going to be complex untangling 40+ years of regulation and deals but that doesn`t mean it should not be done.

The first hurdle is accepting we are leaving, and that has been kicked along for 3+ years until Boris drew his line in the sand of the 31st October.

Once that hurdle is overcome, with the core negotiations done of retaining certain aspects and losing others, then the rest of the job can be done.

Another referendum? 22 weeks minimum to organise.

Remember it can only be a positive or a negative choice question so "Leave with an unknown deal" can`t be on it. What would the options be then?

Remain or Leave............ done that one.

A General Election would be a far better way of reinforcing the will of the Nation.

Tory`s for "getting on with it".

Lib-Dems for "binning it & rejoining".

Labour for ...... well who knows....

Uncle Nigel will have served his purpose and can go back to the sidelines.

A general election would be a terrible way of deciding Brexit due to the way our parliamentary system works, and the fact that the two main parties are so divided over the issue.

Who do I vote for if I’m a keen Brexiteer and so is my party, but my MP isn’t? Or if I love my MPs work on local issues, but his stance on Brexit is the opposite to mine? Or if I’m a staunch Tory but I want to remain - the Lib Dem’s?!

General elections are supposed to be for a wide variety of issues affecting the whole country, not just one. And both main parties have supporters of both in them.

Let’s have a confirmatory referendum, enact whatever comes out of that, then have a general election after that when the process is already underway and we can move past it.

 

[Essexyellows]

People seem to forget how a referendum works.

It has to be a simple positive or negative response to a simple question, equality & fairness and "lowest common denominator" comes into play.

That also rules out "deal options" because none of them are factual or predictable.

So the first question in `75 was based on a pre-prepared renegotiation of our membership ...... the deal had been done and was then voted on.
Stay in "Yes" or "No". Yes won that one.

This time round the vote was held to decide if we should Leave or Remain ....... No won that one. So now the deal has to be done.

Lets surmise we have a confirmatory referendum ............. on what? Remember the caveats of a referendum.

We either go back to the 1975 model of question................ but we can`t because there isn`t a "legal agreement,confirmed fact or set of facts", to vote on.

Or we re-run a straight Leave or Remain.

And waste another 6 months........

Lets say Leave win 52/48 again....... what then? Eternal hiatus until the right result comes out?

Then chuck in a GE........

And we wonder why folk are disengaged with politics when the most simple ballot of the people isn`t enacted as they wished.

 

[IsleofWightYellow]

People seem to forget how a referendum works.

It has to be a simple positive or negative response to a simple question, equality & fairness and "lowest common denominator" comes into play.

That also rules out "deal options" because none of them are factual or predictable.

So the first question in `75 was based on a pre-prepared renegotiation of our membership ...... the deal had been done and was then voted on.
Stay in "Yes" or "No". Yes won that one.

This time round the vote was held to decide if we should Leave or Remain ....... No won that one. So now the deal has to be done.

Lets surmise we have a confirmatory referendum ............. on what? Remember the caveats of a referendum.

We either go back to the 1975 model of question................ but we can`t because there isn`t a "legal agreement,confirmed fact or set of facts", to vote on.

Or we re-run a straight Leave or Remain.

And waste another 6 months........

Lets say Leave win 52/48 again....... what then? Eternal hiatus until the right result comes out?

Then chuck in a GE........

And we wonder why folk are disengaged with politics when the most simple ballot of the people isn`t enacted as they wished.

I don’t think you are correct. Both Theresa May’s and Boris Johnson’s deal have been fully agreed and ratified by the EU. Therefore they are legally set and ready to go. ‘No deal’ doesn’t need the same agreement, it is a set of circumstances which result in us not having a deal, so again we could do that immediately.

A simple question on a referendum ballot could be:

When it comes to the UK leaving the European Union do you wish to:

1. Leave -
With Boris Johnson’s deal
With Theresa May’s Deal
Without a deal

2. Remain

That is very simple and clear. Frankly, if an individual couldn’t understand that, or be bothered to research the vast differences between the three leave options, I don’t think they should be having a say in our countries future.

 

[Sarge]

all the hot air and bluster about we will leave on Oct 31st is yet another lie being pedaled by Bozo and his right-wing henchmen (& henchwomen)... fact is even if Bozo's, worse than May's 3 time rejected deal manages to get HoC approval, UK will not 'leave' EU on Oct 31st, as there's another 2 years (minimum) of talks/negotiations etc ( re free trade among other things) to follow

Looks like ardent leavers are going be very disappointed?

 

[Essexyellows]

I don’t think you are correct. Both Theresa May’s and Boris Johnson’s deal have been fully agreed and ratified by the EU. Therefore they are legally set and ready to go. ‘No deal’ doesn’t need the same agreement, it is a set of circumstances which result in us not having a deal, so again we could do that immediately.

A simple question on a referendum ballot could be:

When it comes to the UK leaving the European Union do you wish to:

1. Leave -
With Boris Johnson’s deal
With Theresa May’s Deal
Without a deal

2. Remain

That is very simple and clear. Frankly, if an individual couldn’t understand that, or be bothered to research the vast differences between the three leave options, I don’t think they should be having a say in our countries future.

And how will the votes be counted then?

Are you suggesting adding up all the Leave options against Remain?

Then going with the larger of the three Leave options?

So, based on the previous referendum, the 52% gets split 3 ways...... but one of them, possibly as few as 34% of Leave voters alone gets to decide the exit route for the country?

 

[sadoldsod1778]

And your an ardent remainder anyone right of JC is a right wing henchmen sums you up;

 

[pooshooter]

Nobody ever leaves the European Union...

 

[Whingit]

And how will the votes be counted then?

Are you suggesting adding up all the Leave options against Remain?

Then going with the larger of the three Leave options?

So, based on the previous referendum, the 52% gets split 3 ways...... but one of them, possibly as few as 34% of Leave voters alone gets to decide the exit route for the country?

Under the remain box you put the 3 leave options as well. If leave wins, the entire electorate then has a say in how to leave. It's pretty simple.