National News Brexit - the Deal or No Deal poll

Brexit - Deal or No Deal?

  • Deal

    Votes: 51 29.1%
  • No Deal

    Votes: 77 44.0%
  • Call in the Donald

    Votes: 2 1.1%
  • Call in Noel Edmonds

    Votes: 8 4.6%
  • I don't care anymore

    Votes: 37 21.1%

  • Total voters
    175
At the end of the day even though a majority of those who voted will not get their way.
Despite Cameron and so many others saying it was a once in a lifetime vote, clearly it wasn’t.
We have so many in government who want to remain, the EU don't want us to leave.
Leading scientists, doctors warning us of medicine shortages, the car industry, leaders in finance telling us what will happen if we leave without a deal or leave with a deal.
For three and half years we have little day to day business carried out while this whole thing carries on with no progress on brexit.
No election, no second referendum.
The whole country has ground to a halt and the country Has probably resigned itself to staying in.
Just what the remainders wanted.
Looks like they’ve won the day
 
I was nodding in agreement with you Peter, until the last sentence! I'm a Remainer, yet to be convinced by anyone that Leaving is the sensible option, but if we don't leave I won't feel as if I've 'won' anything, I'll just be happy that, as far as I'm concerned, sanity has prevailed.

The country is polarised, and I don't think references to 'winners' and 'losers' will help reduce the divisions.
As I keep saying, this is just about ‘winning’ for most people now, and the language expressed above really backs that up. To not leave would be to ‘lose’ as that is the narrative being drummed up from certain quarters. Making people feel like they’re in a battle where there are only winners and losers is the best way to keep people distracted and on side, and to stop them from thinking, scrutinising and reconsidering. The last thing we want is too many people who were conned the first time starting to wake up and shift the momentum back the other way. Best keep them in check by making them feel as though they’re in a war, and that they need to keep fighting while a Union Jack flutters above the war fields. Treason, betrayal, surrender - let’s keep fighting for Brexit while we try to rush legislation through at every turn that even the people proposing it don’t seem to fully understand. We can figure it out later, don’t worry about it, just keep fighting the naysayer armies and for the love of God don’t read the details, or start looking around you to see what’s creeping into view. These people are traitors who have betrayed this noble land, and they will say and do anything to defeat you. They will claim logic, reason and facts as their own, but be warned, they are deceivers and liars who simply do not want you to have the glory that you have previously taken. Do not let this happen. This is about sovereignty, democracy, and the will of the people.

WE. MUST. WIN.
 
As I keep saying, this is just about ‘winning’ for most people now, and the language expressed above really backs that up. To not leave would be to ‘lose’ as that is the narrative being drummed up from certain quarters. Making people feel like they’re in a battle where there are only winners and losers is the best way to keep people distracted and on side, and to stop them from thinking, scrutinising and reconsidering. The last thing we want is too many people who were conned the first time starting to wake up and shift the momentum back the other way. Best keep them in check by making them feel as though they’re in a war, and that they need to keep fighting while a Union Jack flutters above the war fields. Treason, betrayal, surrender - let’s keep fighting for Brexit while we try to rush legislation through at every turn that even the people proposing it don’t seem to fully understand. We can figure it out later, don’t worry about it, just keep fighting the naysayer armies and for the love of God don’t read the details, or start looking around you to see what’s creeping into view. These people are traitors who have betrayed this noble land, and they will say and do anything to defeat you. They will claim logic, reason and facts as their own, but be warned, they are deceivers and liars who simply do not want you to have the glory that you have previously taken. Do not let this happen. This is about sovereignty, democracy, and the will of the people.

WE. MUST. WIN.
Sadly, when an honest vote is persistently undermined ("conned" "cheating", etc), starting the day after it took place, any real sense of compromise has steadily drifted away and the longer is goes on, the more I want to win. 2 year ago, I was a lot more relaxed about it.

We have to move on, so while it should not be about win/lose, this is where we have ended up because it's been made to be that. Even implying I've been "conned" and need to wake up does nothing to make not want to win this even more than yesterday. Do you think you are better than people who voted to leave?

I used to be sad about where this has ended up, now I think I was naive to expect anything less than what we have got.
 
Sadly, when an honest vote is persistently undermined ("conned" "cheating", etc), starting the day after it took place, any real sense of compromise has steadily drifted away and the longer is goes on, the more I want to win. 2 year ago, I was a lot more relaxed about it.

But it wasn't an honest vote. It was a vote won by breaking electoral rules and telling lies about how much we pay into the EU, that Turkey is joining the EU, that millions of refugees were about to enter the country, that the EU makes most of our laws, that our young people would be conscripted into a European army, that we don't control our borders, etc.

And don't give me "Remain lied, too". Making forecasts is not lying.

"Vote Leave was the designated lead campaigner for the leave outcome at the referendum. We found that it broke the electoral rules set out by Parliament to ensure fairness, confidence and legitimacy at an electoral event. Serious offences such as these undermine public confidence in our system and it is vital, therefore, that they are properly investigated and sanctioned." https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/media-statement-vote-leave
 
But it wasn't an honest vote. It was a vote won by breaking electoral rules and telling lies about how much we pay into the EU, that Turkey is joining the EU, that millions of refugees were about to enter the country, that the EU makes most of our laws, that our young people would be conscripted into a European army, that we don't control our borders, etc.

And don't give me "Remain lied, too". Making forecasts is not lying.

"Vote Leave was the designated lead campaigner for the leave outcome at the referendum. We found that it broke the electoral rules set out by Parliament to ensure fairness, confidence and legitimacy at an electoral event. Serious offences such as these undermine public confidence in our system and it is vital, therefore, that they are properly investigated and sanctioned." https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/media-statement-vote-leave


First up the fine from the EC was £61k and was for overspending, not for anything they said during the campaign.

Turkey: Negotiations for full membership were started on 3 October 2005. Fair enough they aren`t up to "spec" and things have stalled since 2015 but the application is very much "live".

EU Laws: We always seem to adopt the Gold plated version of any Brussels dictat, unlike other countries.
That is a failure of our politicians not the EU. ✅

An EU Army: The EU works by varying degree`s, first up they`ll suggest standardisation then they will take control over whatever they have created. Macron & Merkel have both openly stated that "it would complement NATO" start with a border force, then a police force, then an army.

Border Control: We currently have our own arrangements outside of Schengen so haven`t gone "Full EU" on them.
 
Vote Leave fine: Yes, the fine was for overspending BUT Vote Leave refused to co-operate with the investigation into whether any other offences had been committed outside the watchdog’s remit. May have been more 'dodginess', we'll probably never know;

Turkey: You've made the point yourself. Scaremongering by Leave based on nothing concrete at the time bearing in mind Turkey's membership position at the time. I can remember seeing a headline along the lines of '80 million Turks heading our way'. An outrageous exaggeration, at best;

EU Laws: UK has a solo veto on most proposed EU laws, although in some cases three member states need to veto. As you allude to, we are not being 'dictated to' by the EU. One of the most commonly repeated fallacies. As you again say, the fact that we tend to be 'very British' and adopt laws in their entirety, unlike some other members, could be seen as positive trait;

EU Army: Largely unsubstantiated 'ifs and buts'. Personally, I think it would make sense for EU nations to contribute to an army of some sort. When EU nations come together under NATO directives that's effectively what happens now;

Border Control: Take you point on that one as I can't be bothered looking it up. Apathy rules.

What Pete said.
 
Depending on which side of the Remain/Leave fence you sit, combined with many other socio-economic factors and the individuals view on the world will influence how you read or understand things . ;)

Turkey has begun the process of joining. And folk talk about "the future"? Open your eyes a bit.

Vote Leave were reported to the Police by the EC to investigate. The outcome of that?
"The Met Police said there is ‘insufficient evidence’ to justify any further criminal investigation into the campaign, founded by Arron Banks and spearheaded by Nigel Farage. The force made the decision after receiving advice from the Crown Prosecution Service following a referral from the Electoral Commission"

I will await the "Ahhhhh well the Met have previous......................" :ROFLMAO:

EU Army: We`ve got NATO..... we don`t need it despite what Macron & Merkel may wish.

Borders: Yes, apathy...... we aren`t full Schengen hence we still get our passports checked!

In fact the invasive "mission creep" of the EU is probably what led to so many people rejecting it, rather than £350 million on a bus!
 
Brexit situation just keeps on giving! never a dull moment is there?

I hear now there's talk of Welsh assembly and Scottish parliament refusing legislative consent to the withdrawal agreement, revised or otherwise.
 
Nobody thinks they are better than anyone else on here do they?

That does not mean I might think you have made an error of judgement, just as you are entitled to think I have made one. We all make mistakes.

It's a bit like the time I bought a dodgy package holiday to Turkey from a far too shiny holiday rep about 25 years ago and the place was a half finished, dangerous dive. I should not have let myself be swayed by the slick patter and shiny literature - I should've done my own research...and maybe shopped around a bit, but the deal look great and it was all there in front of me and all I had to do was sign on the dotted line and pay! Compensation was a bloody nightmare to sort out too!

In any case, talking of dodgy shiny posters and even shinier salesmen, it is very interesting that even arch leave campaigner and brexiteer in chief Nigel Farage thinks that than this less than truthful poster probably won enough votes to make a difference: https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/new...oster-won-the-referendum-for-brexit-1-9404360.
And before you say "yeah, but that is just Farage innit?", do not forget that there are still a significant number of people who hang on his every word - unfortunately for us, he has undue influence in this whole sorry process.

It's not just the fact that using rhetoric like that is dishonest, it is also dangerous because in some people minds it legitimises division and hatred of others. It has no place in an open honest, transparent and fact based campaign and the electorate deserve better. Nobody but nobody wins in the current situation.

I would really hope that the lesson everyone learns from this whole debacle is that politics and political campaigning needs urgent fundamental reform. Alas, I fear I will be sorely disappointed when this latest election campaign finally gets underway (we're already in "phoney war" territory). Nothing has changed and yet that is the change we all need to happen first before we're all sold down the river once more!
 
You don't, of course, know that to be true, and neither do I. All I can refer to is what I have heard others say with my own ears, and read what others have written on social media with my own eyes.

Lots of references to foreigners, particularly 'the Germans', interfering in our business and forcing us to do things we don't want to. Lots of references to historical events, all irrelevant to the Brexit debate. Lots of vague soundbites of the 'make Britain GREAT again' variety, lacking in coherent thought or references to detail of how this will be achieved.

I'm sure plenty of intelligent, thoughtful people voted Leave for logical reasons, but I'm rarely coming across them in a fog of nationalism and barely disguised xenophobia.
The thing for me is that everything nowadays seems to have to be black and white, EVERYONE who voted one way are this, EVERYONE who voted the other are that, etc. This is clearly not the case, as the true picture of the referendum is how the combination of a myriad of different clusters of the population approached the vote, what information they were party to, and how they were targetted both individually and collectively by both sides.

I'm sure there were many people who spent a lot time and effort to study the details on both sides and make an informed decision based on the potential long-term and short-term outcomes that each appeared to offer, and came down on one side or the other. All power to those people, whatever proportion of the voters they represent. I am also sure that individually they were clear about the type of exit they wanted or expected to get - although of course, we will never know what the balance of those opinions were or are.
I'm also sure that there were a sizeable proportion who voted leave from a very simplistic Britain good/Europe bad perspective, and who would not have been persuaded otherwise by the most brilliant Remain campaigners. Again, that is fine.

My interest is not about these groups, but the rest of the populus, and what, if anything, influenced their voting decisions.
Other groups would include a generic rebellious group that would vote against anything deemed to be the establishment that would therefore vote leave, just to disrupt teh status quo - again probably quite a sizeable group.
Likewise, there would probably be a sizeable group that voted remain with little thought about the detail, probably in the main folks who are not interested in politics and were more concerned with getting on with their day to day lives and did not want to disrupt the status quo.
There are possibly a section that chose to vote Leave, not expecting or even wanting to win, merely to fire a warning shot to Parliament to address one or more particular aspects of our relation with Europe.
There are no doubt many other groups that fell on one side or other of the vote, which others can isolate if they want - but this would still leave a group with no fundamental leanings either way, who are not that interested in politics, and who do not have the time or inclination do go hunting for the details and instead rely on the media for the information they need, as they do, and normally receive, at every election.

The thing that eats away at some/many who voted remain is that with a margin that was, in the end very small, just 635k needed to have voted the other way for Remain to have won (which is a lot less than influence many a TV show on a Saturday night) - that they have been let down by a combination of factors that they feel would have led to at least that many potentially choosing otherwise - not least the two campaigns.

Rightly or Wrongly, the Leave campaign set out purely to get the most votes, by whatever means possible, rather than persuade the nation through education and debate across all aspects of the issue. It focused on touching the nerves of certain groups of people, and used very some dubious methods in doing so (eg. pick up people's fears about the continual inwards flow of people into the country, question the integrity and contribution of those that are coming, and then suggest that the entire population of Turkey might be coming soon).

The issue however, is not that they chose this approach, but that the Remain campaign were so arrogant/complacent about the whole affair that at no stage did they i) expose some of the tactics used as misleading and ii) bring the headline discussions around to other aspects of the issue that would be more persuasive to getting people to question whether leaving was actually the right thing to do.
Maybe the majority of floaters did not believe everything they saw on the side of a bus or over the shoulder of a beaming Farage or Boris, but at the same time the bitesize mainstream coverage that a vast group of voters WOULD probably end up relying on to make their decision, just never got around to many of the more problematic issues that Leaving would cause.

In fact, the fallout of the fact that the Remain campaign never did get the Leave side to have to spell out what Leave would actually mean (in terms of every aspect of the issue) is borne out by the fact that the last two to three years have been arguing about that very point (HArd/Soft, deal/no deal) and at each turn a new factor that avoided the focus during the campaign has come to light amidst much consternation - for instance the whole Irish border issue.

Had Remain pinned Leave down to having to explain their policy on just that one issue (let alone many others that have now come to the awareness of a wider audience), and then grilled them on the practicalities and problems of whatever they had come up with (be it backstop, an Irish Sea border, a return to the troubles) then that in itself may have been enough to persuade just over half a million people to reconsider...

In the end, there is just the sense that such an important decision should not be made purely on the tactical nous of one small group of people and the gross arrogance, complacency and incompetence of another. I was going to say that the people deserve more than that, but maybe we don't?
 
But it wasn't an honest vote. It was a vote won by breaking electoral rules and telling lies about how much we pay into the EU, that Turkey is joining the EU, that millions of refugees were about to enter the country, that the EU makes most of our laws, that our young people would be conscripted into a European army, that we don't control our borders, etc.

And don't give me "Remain lied, too". Making forecasts is not lying.

"Vote Leave was the designated lead campaigner for the leave outcome at the referendum. We found that it broke the electoral rules set out by Parliament to ensure fairness, confidence and legitimacy at an electoral event. Serious offences such as these undermine public confidence in our system and it is vital, therefore, that they are properly investigated and sanctioned." https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/media-statement-vote-leave
For one, not every leave voter read any if at all stuff from Vote Leave or their cohorts. But regardless of that, they are convenient straw man for bitter Remainers who still cannot accept we voted to leave. Where did Vote Leave break law the other than on spending rules?

So this didn't happen on the Remain? Some amazing whoppers here that even Burger King are interested - this is from 2016.

"David Cameron implied in a speech about the "serried rows of white headstones" that World War 3 would be upon us if Brexit occurred. The last time I checked the UK had not invaded Poland or any other country, and therefore we must conclude this was a lie. " WW3 doesn't seem pending anytime soon in regards to Brexit.

"3 million people in the UK will lose their jobs was the fictitious figure banded about. However, in July the claimant count fell by 8,600 to 763,600, despite an expected rise of 9,500. Another lie." Nope, still not happened and not on the horizon in the scale they predicted.


But Remainers never lied did they? ?
 
^^^ Who's gonna tell Ol' GB here that UK hasn't actually left yet, ergo we cannot determine whether these "remainer lies" will actually realize yet?

Staggering that people have such strong political opinions whilst missing some absolutely fundamental facts. Which are kinda important *facepalm *
 
The thing for me is that everything nowadays seems to have to be black and white, EVERYONE who voted one way are this, EVERYONE who voted the other are that, etc. This is clearly not the case, as the true picture of the referendum is how the combination of a myriad of different clusters of the population approached the vote, what information they were party to, and how they were targetted both individually and collectively by both sides.

I'm sure there were many people who spent a lot time and effort to study the details on both sides and make an informed decision based on the potential long-term and short-term outcomes that each appeared to offer, and came down on one side or the other. All power to those people, whatever proportion of the voters they represent. I am also sure that individually they were clear about the type of exit they wanted or expected to get - although of course, we will never know what the balance of those opinions were or are.
I'm also sure that there were a sizeable proportion who voted leave from a very simplistic Britain good/Europe bad perspective, and who would not have been persuaded otherwise by the most brilliant Remain campaigners. Again, that is fine.

My interest is not about these groups, but the rest of the populus, and what, if anything, influenced their voting decisions.
Other groups would include a generic rebellious group that would vote against anything deemed to be the establishment that would therefore vote leave, just to disrupt teh status quo - again probably quite a sizeable group.
Likewise, there would probably be a sizeable group that voted remain with little thought about the detail, probably in the main folks who are not interested in politics and were more concerned with getting on with their day to day lives and did not want to disrupt the status quo.
There are possibly a section that chose to vote Leave, not expecting or even wanting to win, merely to fire a warning shot to Parliament to address one or more particular aspects of our relation with Europe.
There are no doubt many other groups that fell on one side or other of the vote, which others can isolate if they want - but this would still leave a group with no fundamental leanings either way, who are not that interested in politics, and who do not have the time or inclination do go hunting for the details and instead rely on the media for the information they need, as they do, and normally receive, at every election.

The thing that eats away at some/many who voted remain is that with a margin that was, in the end very small, just 635k needed to have voted the other way for Remain to have won (which is a lot less than influence many a TV show on a Saturday night) - that they have been let down by a combination of factors that they feel would have led to at least that many potentially choosing otherwise - not least the two campaigns.

Rightly or Wrongly, the Leave campaign set out purely to get the most votes, by whatever means possible, rather than persuade the nation through education and debate across all aspects of the issue. It focused on touching the nerves of certain groups of people, and used very some dubious methods in doing so (eg. pick up people's fears about the continual inwards flow of people into the country, question the integrity and contribution of those that are coming, and then suggest that the entire population of Turkey might be coming soon).

The issue however, is not that they chose this approach, but that the Remain campaign were so arrogant/complacent about the whole affair that at no stage did they i) expose some of the tactics used as misleading and ii) bring the headline discussions around to other aspects of the issue that would be more persuasive to getting people to question whether leaving was actually the right thing to do.
Maybe the majority of floaters did not believe everything they saw on the side of a bus or over the shoulder of a beaming Farage or Boris, but at the same time the bitesize mainstream coverage that a vast group of voters WOULD probably end up relying on to make their decision, just never got around to many of the more problematic issues that Leaving would cause.

In fact, the fallout of the fact that the Remain campaign never did get the Leave side to have to spell out what Leave would actually mean (in terms of every aspect of the issue) is borne out by the fact that the last two to three years have been arguing about that very point (HArd/Soft, deal/no deal) and at each turn a new factor that avoided the focus during the campaign has come to light amidst much consternation - for instance the whole Irish border issue.

Had Remain pinned Leave down to having to explain their policy on just that one issue (let alone many others that have now come to the awareness of a wider audience), and then grilled them on the practicalities and problems of whatever they had come up with (be it backstop, an Irish Sea border, a return to the troubles) then that in itself may have been enough to persuade just over half a million people to reconsider...

In the end, there is just the sense that such an important decision should not be made purely on the tactical nous of one small group of people and the gross arrogance, complacency and incompetence of another. I was going to say that the people deserve more than that, but maybe we don't?


Best post on this subject for a long time, right there. ^^^^^^^^^^
 
For one, not every leave voter read any if at all stuff from Vote Leave or their cohorts. But regardless of that, they are convenient straw man for bitter Remainers who still cannot accept we voted to leave. Where did Vote Leave break law the other than on spending rules?

So this didn't happen on the Remain? Some amazing whoppers here that even Burger King are interested - this is from 2016.

"David Cameron implied in a speech about the "serried rows of white headstones" that World War 3 would be upon us if Brexit occurred. The last time I checked the UK had not invaded Poland or any other country, and therefore we must conclude this was a lie. " WW3 doesn't seem pending anytime soon in regards to Brexit.

"3 million people in the UK will lose their jobs was the fictitious figure banded about. However, in July the claimant count fell by 8,600 to 763,600, despite an expected rise of 9,500. Another lie." Nope, still not happened and not on the horizon in the scale they predicted.


But Remainers never lied did they? ?

Again, those are predictions, not lies. Over-the-top predictions, but not lies. The leave campaign peddled actual falsehoods. They said things about our relationship with the EU that were demonstrably untrue. Just as Johnson and other journalists peddled lies about the EU for decades, which had poisoned our relationship with the union already.

For the record, I voted remain but wasn't that bothered by the result. Disappointed but not unduly worried. I was naive enough to think that our government would negotiate a sensible withdrawal agreement that took us out of the EU but would retain some kind of access to the single market. Which, incidentally, we were reassured by the likes of Gove, Raab and Hannan we would retain.

Since then, the insistence by first May of ridiculous red lines and the increasingly belligerent attitude of the ERG types has led us towards a no-deal exit which will harm our economy and society. And I was horrified by some of the xenophobic bile that was unleashed in the wake of the result. Not by people on here, I would stress - you all seem perfectly reasonable and I respect you and your opinions.

That's why I've become increasingly pro-remain.
 
Again, those are predictions, not lies. Over-the-top predictions, but not lies. The leave campaign peddled actual falsehoods. They said things about our relationship with the EU that were demonstrably untrue. Just as Johnson and other journalists peddled lies about the EU for decades, which had poisoned our relationship with the union already.

For the record, I voted remain but wasn't that bothered by the result. Disappointed but not unduly worried. I was naive enough to think that our government would negotiate a sensible withdrawal agreement that took us out of the EU but would retain some kind of access to the single market. Which, incidentally, we were reassured by the likes of Gove, Raab and Hannan we would retain.

Since then, the insistence by first May of ridiculous red lines and the increasingly belligerent attitude of the ERG types has led us towards a no-deal exit which will harm our economy and society. And I was horrified by some of the xenophobic bile that was unleashed in the wake of the result. Not by people on here, I would stress - you all seem perfectly reasonable and I respect you and your opinions.

That's why I've become increasingly pro-remain.
Same as ^
 
"Over the top predictions" about something we know nothing about until its done.

But they aren`t "lies".

Lord Hawhaw would be proud.

Aside from that, I would agree that leaving with a deal is a far better option. However you don`t take the "big stick" off the table in a negotiation. Remember the EU said "thats the deal, no changes" until Boris got involved.
It`ll go to the wire, there will be an extension long enough for Parliament to scrutinise the Bill and we`ll leave in an orderly manner, then we`ll have a GE.

I voted to Leave, my resolve is unwavering. (y)
 
"David Cameron implied in a speech about the "serried rows of white headstones" that World War 3 would be upon us if Brexit occurred. The last time I checked the UK had not invaded Poland or any other country, and therefore we must conclude this was a lie. " WW3 doesn't seem pending anytime soon in regards to Brexit.
You should check what your sources are quoting. Cameron did not imply that at all. What he said was on the lines of that you only have to look at the war graves in Belgium/France to see what has previously happened in a divided Europe and that we should think carefully before introducing divisions. You might disagree but he’s not “implying that brexit will cause WW3”.
The way this was reported in what you quoted is more of a lie than what call-me-Dave said.
 
"Over the top predictions" about something we know nothing about until its done.

But they aren`t "lies".
So if I say I think oxford are going to win the league and they don’t, am I a liar (and a traitorous propagandist according to you)?
 
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