England v Italy EURO 2020 Cup Final

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Re: @ttg17's excellent post above

I agree. I am a 'football fan'. I feel absolutely no affinity with some of the complete bellends that describe themselves as the same, and seeing them all scuttle out of the woodwork during parts of this competition has indeed been mortifying. It really does bring that there is still a small (?) minority of people in this country who are small minded, willfully ignorant, self-entitled, illiberal, disrespectful idiots and many of these will attach themselves to international football (like a tick) at the slightest chance to parade their idiocy.
 
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ttg17 said:
The football side of last night was obviously cripplingly disappointing. We ceded the ball for 80 minutes to disastrous effect, made the wrong substitutions and had the wrong penalty takers. A grim watch and a missed opportunity.

But the overwhelming bitterness for me today is the shame that the off-field antics have brought on the country this tournament. I'm sure it's been mentioned up the thread somewhere, but seeing the videos yesterday and this morning of what was going on in London and in Wembley, and the horrific racist abuse that was predictably levelled at the penalty takers as soon as that last penalty was saved, has been mortifying. They would be bad enough in themselves - but for me they colour all the other reports of England fans' at-best questionable behaviour this tournament.

In isolation they can be explained away as being the actions of a small minority, not representative of the entire fan base. Booing the knee? It's only a vocal minority, whose boos were drowned out by the majority. Booing the opponent's national anthem? Just a bit of footballing pantomime (even though this is obviously coloured by the xenophobic atmosphere gripping the country at the moment). Laser in the eyes, a Danish family attacked on their way home? Just a couple of individual idiots, they don't represent the fanbase as a whole.

But the scenes yesterday, the carnage in central London, the hordes of people storming into Wembley, the violence everywhere on a day that was supposed to be a celebration of English football's greatest achievement in 55 years means that, for me, it can't be brushed under the carpet as some extreme minority. For all the talk of how this wonderful team has 'brought the country together' over the past month and 'given us all something to cheer about', it's clear that a massive proportion of the country are simply complete C***s. The tournament, and the success that it has brought, hasn't 'brought out the best' in the country - it's brought out the obnoxious, violent, racist worst.

I'm not sure whether this is just me still feeling gutted the morning after. But it really feels like my overriding memory of this tournament will be, not pride and excitement in an England team reaching a major final, and memories of the wonderful moments, shared with some of my favourite people in the world, that brought us there, but shame that this is the country that represents me. And it is very difficult this morning to reconcile my enthusiasm for English football with what it obviously represents.
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I can disagree with the football element. For England to hold Italy and outplay them for the first half and some of extra time was commendable. I've seen many commentators say they were the better side and I'm inclined to agree. No shame in losing to them. It's the manner of the penalty shootout that stings.

Funny that a pandemic has brought back 'the English disease'. It's not so much old fashioned hooliganism but medium-to-high level anti-social behaviour. An escalating of events that leads to violence. I'm agreement that as a country (GB and England), we've been divided - Brexit, Scottish independence, refugees, BLM, the pong of whatever Trump was doing over the pond, GB News, toppling of statues and so on. It's been a nasty few years since 2016 and the pandemic has bottled up a lot of aggression. I'm not sure what the answer is but a release valve of sorts is needed.

The saddest bit of your post is the phrase 'horrific racist abuse that was predictably levelled at the penalty takers'. 'Predictably'. Like we knew it was coming. I thought it yesterday too when I observed that the three penalty takers who missed were black. I knew some individuals would pile in on that. I just hope the FA/England officials let the players know to keep off social media. Who on earth are these people who send these messages? The issue is is that it's just too easy to post hate - tap it into your phone, @ your victim and get on with your day without a thought about the consequences. It requires as little thought as checking the weather and yet so little is done about it.
 
chuckbert said:
Have a watch of the Graham Taylor documentary again, watch the Phil neal, Laurie mcmenemy, Taylor trio in action, and you’ll be glad to see GS thinking for himself :)
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Seen it numerous times and it’s difficult to create an argument on that.

However, Southgate has hand picked his back room team so it was even more surprising to see none of them on his shoulder. Also very noticeable the England subs in comparison to the Italian ones. The Italian one were visibly encouraging the 11 on the pitch. Small things also like when the ball went out an injury etc. They would instantly throw on water to the players on that side and also sent out plenty of times with instructions. England didn’t do that.
 
ZeroTheHero said:
Re: @ttg17's excellent post above

I agree. I am a 'football fan'. I feel absolutely no affinity with some of the complete bellends that describe themselves as the same, and seeing them all scuttle out of the woodwork during parts of this competition has indeed been mortifying. It really does bring that there is still a small (?) minority of people in this country who are small minded, willfully ignorant, self-entitled, illiberal, disprepectful idiots and many of these will attach themselves to international football (like a tick) at the slightest chance to parade their idiocy.
Click to expand...

I agree with everything you say. I always thought it was fairly simple to go through life following the rule of "don't be a dick" but seemingly there are a number of people who seem to think the way to 'prove' themself is to form a mob, get blind drunk and intimidate/attack innocents, and also hurl abuse from behind a keyboard. The reality is they only go and prove the exact opposite and they are likely weak minded and need the safety of a large group or anonymity to make their point.

Southgate is a proper leader and immediately came out and took accountability for his faults. Something those cowards would never do.
 
A game of two very closely matched teams. The difference was that Italy at least managed to keep some sort of midfield to go forward now and again. England instead seemed to be stuck in a 7-0-3 or 7-3-0 formation that didn't allow any possession or attacking threat. Ironically the goal after 2 minutes displayed all the benefits of playing wing backs. After 20 minutes they barely got past the half way line probably under instruction to defend the lead. Rice burst forward 2 or 3 times in the match and within a few strides was the highest player forward with no one around him except Italian defenders trying to catch him.

But this seemed to be the way of the tournament and the way the modern game has gone. Defend at all costs, keep possession by passing backwards and sideways, every team did it. There was no stand out brilliant player of Euro 2020 like we have had at previous tournaments. And the quality of strikers on show at the moment is truly shocking, Spain would have won if they had a striker who could put away 1 of 10 chances they got each game. In a day when players earn unimagine wealth for playing football, this generation of footballers seems to be lacking in real quality compared to their predecessors and all seem to be moulded into the stale tactical way that the game now has become. Other than a 45 minute cameo from De Bruyne when Belgium desperately needed their best player I can't think of a stand out individual player performance. England have the quality in Foden, Grealish, Sancho, Bellingham but not a system to fit them into. Really we should be building a team around these sort of players, but we won't. This was a record breaking performance but you can't overlook the fact that the other nations were generally at their worst for ages, credit that we could take advantage of the their shortcomings but it was grit and determination that got us to the final not flair and quality. Feels like a missed opportunity, just needed a tiny bit more risk for reward, but that is not Southgate.
 
unification said:
I can disagree with the football element. For England to hold Italy and outplay them for the first half and some of extra time was commendable. I've seen many commentators say they were the better side and I'm inclined to agree. No shame in losing to them. It's the manner of the penalty shootout that stings.

Funny that a pandemic has brought back 'the English disease'. It's not so much old fashioned hooliganism but medium-to-high level anti-social behaviour. An escalating of events that leads to violence. I'm agreement that as a country (GB and England), we've been divided - Brexit, Scottish independence, refugees, BLM, the pong of whatever Trump was doing over the pond, GB News, toppling of statues and so on. It's been a nasty few years since 2016 and the pandemic has bottled up a lot of aggression. I'm not sure what the answer is but a release valve of sorts is needed.

The saddest bit of your post is the phrase 'horrific racist abuse that was predictably levelled at the penalty takers'. 'Predictably'. Like we knew it was coming. I thought it yesterday too when I observed that the three penalty takers who missed were black. I knew some individuals would pile in on that. I just hope the FA/England officials let the players know to keep off social media. Who on earth are these people who send these messages? The issue is is that it's just too easy to post hate - tap it into your phone, @ your victim and get on with your day without a thought about the consequences. It requires as little thought as checking the weather and yet so little is done about it.
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Exactly right.

If I walked up to any of those players in the street and abused them in the manner that most keyboard warriors do, I would be arrested and in the dock answering for my actions and rightly so. Yet anyone can do the same thing with anonymity behind their handle - why can't the powers that be legislate so that anyone posting via a social media App/platform has to prove their identity to the App/platform provider which can then be passed onto the police in instances such as this?
 
Foley said:
OK I will bite.
Talk of ridiculous comment!
The first rule of any penalty if to put it on target . The keeper goes the wrong way and you score.
There is no way on earth that Rashfords was the best of the 3
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They were all shite.
 
ttg17 said:
The football side of last night was obviously cripplingly disappointing. We ceded the ball for 80 minutes to disastrous effect, made the wrong substitutions and had the wrong penalty takers. A grim watch and a missed opportunity.

But the overwhelming bitterness for me today is the shame that the off-field antics have brought on the country this tournament. I'm sure it's been mentioned up the thread somewhere, but seeing the videos yesterday and this morning of what was going on in London and in Wembley, and the horrific racist abuse that was predictably levelled at the penalty takers as soon as that last penalty was saved, has been mortifying. They would be bad enough in themselves - but for me they colour all the other reports of England fans' at-best questionable behaviour this tournament.

In isolation they can be explained away as being the actions of a small minority, not representative of the entire fan base. Booing the knee? It's only a vocal minority, whose boos were drowned out by the majority. Booing the opponent's national anthem? Just a bit of footballing pantomime (even though this is obviously coloured by the xenophobic atmosphere gripping the country at the moment). Laser in the eyes, a Danish family attacked on their way home? Just a couple of individual idiots, they don't represent the fanbase as a whole.

But the scenes yesterday, the carnage in central London, the hordes of people storming into Wembley, the violence everywhere on a day that was supposed to be a celebration of English football's greatest achievement in 55 years means that, for me, it can't be brushed under the carpet as some extreme minority. For all the talk of how this wonderful team has 'brought the country together' over the past month and 'given us all something to cheer about', it's clear that a massive proportion of the country are simply complete C***s. The tournament, and the success that it has brought, hasn't 'brought out the best' in the country - it's brought out the obnoxious, violent, racist worst.

I'm not sure whether this is just me still feeling gutted the morning after. But it really feels like my overriding memory of this tournament will be, not pride and excitement in an England team reaching a major final, and memories of the wonderful moments, shared with some of my favourite people in the world, that brought us there, but shame that this is the country that represents me. And it is very difficult this morning to reconcile my enthusiasm for English football with what it obviously represents.
Click to expand...
It's certainly aggravating when very poor behaviour is explained away as simply being that of 'a minority'. Statistically, I'm sure those who harbour racist thoughts, or express those thoughts, or attack others, or try to force their way into Wembley represent a small percentage of the population. But fact is, these people live amongst us. They are our neighbours or Oxford fans who sit near us at matches or people we spend time with in pubs or restaurants.

One racist tweeter who abused the penalty missers works for a prestigious estate agency. One man who abused and assaulted Chris Whitty is another estate agent. Are people like this easy to dismiss as part of a mythical moronic minority who are unlike 'us 'normal people'? I think not. If we hear casual racism - for example - in a social environment should we not confront it, irrelevant of how well we know the person? The ball's in our court folks and, in my opinion, justifying the booing of another national anthem because it's 'football tradition' or 'just a laugh' or 'because other countries do it' is pathetic rather than reasonable.

Moaning about thugs, vandals and racists on social media might be worth doing but won't solve the problem, although I realise actual confrontation is very difficult much of the time for a number of reasons.
 
Junior_1 said:
Seen it numerous times and it’s difficult to create an argument on that.

However, Southgate has hand picked his back room team so it was even more surprising to see none of them on his shoulder. Also very noticeable the England subs in comparison to the Italian ones. The Italian one were visibly encouraging the 11 on the pitch. Small things also like when the ball went out an injury etc. They would instantly throw on water to the players on that side and also sent out plenty of times with instructions. England didn’t do that.
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Honestly, I think that's ridiculous comment and just looking for a stick to beat him with - just because they weren't permanently stood next to him and in his ear doesn't mean they weren't proffering advice. We regularly saw cuts to Holland (I think) stepping out to talk to Southgate and I think we can all acknowledge there was a real unity in the squad and players. As I said before, seemingly little in the way of egos and distractions - no Beckham or Terry, no club faction no wags, no leaking stories.

All the way to the final I think Southgate was proved right in his judgement and unfortunately, his mis-steps came in the last game. I think he needed to be a little bit braver and continue taking the game to Italy after starting so well. Hopefully, he's still young enough to learn and take a really promising bunch of players with him.
 
Foley said:
OK I will bite.
Talk of ridiculous comment!
The first rule of any penalty if to put it on target . The keeper goes the wrong way and you score.
There is no way on earth that Rashfords was the best of the 3
Click to expand...

Regarding penalties, it so often becomes a poor penalty because the keeper saves it. Take Bernardeschi's for example, straight down the middle and on the ground. If Pickford stands still he makes an easy save (with hindsight) and we could go onto win. If that happened then I'm sure the Italians would be talking about that like people are overanalysing Rashford, Sancho and Saka. The best penalties are the ones hit hard and into a corner, like Maguire's, as they become 'unsaveable'. I think most professional footballers should be able to put a ball into an area of the goal from 12 yards out, being able to do it on the training ground is one thing, it's another thing entirely to do it in the moment of a shootout. It doesn't help that the nation hate on those that miss so much as it only confirms the fear for next time round.
 
Jack Midson said:
Regarding penalties, it so often becomes a poor penalty because the keeper saves it. Take Bernardeschi's for example, straight down the middle and on the ground. If Pickford stands still he makes an easy save (with hindsight) and we could go onto win. If that happened then I'm sure the Italians would be talking about that like people are overanalysing Rashford, Sancho and Saka. The best penalties are the ones hit hard and into a corner, like Maguire's, as they become 'unsaveable'. I think most professional footballers should be able to put a ball into an area of the goal from 12 yards out, being able to do it on the training ground is one thing, it's another thing entirely to do it in the moment of a shootout. It doesn't help that the nation hate on those that miss so much as it only confirms the fear for next time round.
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I'm annoyed that Southgate made those late late subs specifically to take pens, almost disrupting our defence of a corner to do so, and thrust two young players into an unbearably tense situation. They must have said they were up for it, but it seemed like a misjudgement. His in-game management yesterday seemed off as a whole.

However his overall campaign was incredibly impressive and he forged a really cohesive team out of less than stellar ingredients. Being England manager is about a lot more than just football and he handles the political and media side in such an intelligent and dignified way. Imagine, we nearly had Big Sam!
 
Jack Midson said:
Regarding penalties, it so often becomes a poor penalty because the keeper saves it. Take Bernardeschi's for example, straight down the middle and on the ground. If Pickford stands still he makes an easy save (with hindsight) and we could go onto win. If that happened then I'm sure the Italians would be talking about that like people are overanalysing Rashford, Sancho and Saka. The best penalties are the ones hit hard and into a corner, like Maguire's, as they become 'unsaveable'. I think most professional footballers should be able to put a ball into an area of the goal from 12 yards out, being able to do it on the training ground is one thing, it's another thing entirely to do it in the moment of a shootout. It doesn't help that the nation hate on those that miss so much as it only confirms the fear for next time round.
Click to expand...
There were some interesting comments on the BBC, from Shearer's 'the longest 40 yards you will ever walk in professional football' to Frank Lampard's 'never change your mind' and Lineker's 'they can see the keepers are committing, just hit it down the middle'. We can't even imagine the pressure and the Italian keeper looked to be getting bigger and bigger as the shoot-out went on. On Sky Danny Mills was saying that people remember Southgate, Waddle (I'm sure they're still relaying that ball back to the stadium) and Pearce but forget Batty, Ince, Beckham, Vassel, Young, Gerrard, Cole and even Lampard (not forgetting Henderson against Columbia).
 
Thought we played pretty well against really excellent Italian side , (look at their current stats), and to take them all the way to penalties was a real achievement. If we’d tried to open up they would have cut us to ribbons. Magnificent defensive performance in fact. Walker and Maguire towering.

We all know penalties are a lottery. But the Southgate strategy was woeful. What was he thinking selecting a kid for pen 5? Where were the old heads when pressure was so intense?

Rashfords penalty so poor.

Pickford could not really have done more, 2 brilliant penalty saves. However the giant Donnarumma was just as good.

Moving forward, what England need most is a Stevie G type dominant central midfielder. Rice may become that man in years to come but he’s certainly got some improving to do.

Shaw a revelation during tournament so reckon the back 5 is settled.

He could be the left back Ox need.
 
The Blame culture has reared it's head, everything is hindsight and somebody was going to miss on 1 team or the other.

People can analyse all they want but there is no right or wrong, no doubt had it been Kane we would have heard why let him take one when he missed the other day.

as for late sub just to take a penalty Paul Powell anyone ! this happens enough times and has no bearing one way or the other.

Everyone knows and accepts it's a lottery and someone is going to miss, it could as easily be the 5th or 9th so in Saka's case how would the pressure be less if he had been 7th 9th or whatever it either goes in or it doesn't.
 
The best team won, England tried their very best , but lost in a lottery , I wasn’t convinced with the midfield prior to the tournament starting, but the defensive duo played their hearts out , where we were lacking was the third player in the attacking role who for me who ever it was playing in that role didn’t offer enough.

the behaviour of “fans” also needs to be looked at , the scenes outside Wembley were disturbing, the abuse was so wrong in every way,

So to progress we need more punch up front a , a bit more guile in the midfield, and dare I say it the ability to do a bit of clogging , the second half was desperate for someone to physically impose themselves as the Italian team managed to do on the England team
 
RyanioBirdio said:
People can pretend otherwise all they like, but this is what begins to happen to a society when it is intentionally and purposefully divided and riled up at every opportunity, for years at a time. This is a brief glimpse at a new national mood and an increasingly aggressive collective mindset - for people to dismiss it as a few football fans being thugs would be beyond naive. This isn’t solely about football, this is a behavioural change.

You can’t tease and poke a dog in the ribs every day for months and years at a time without it changing its nature. It flinches; it winces; it jolts; it whimpers; it groans; it growls; it snarls; it barks; it bites. It’s a process and it’s been going on for years. There is nothing in this country more influential than the tone of the media and the messaging of politicians, both of which tend to go hand in hand. It’s been that way for decades, but now it’s on steroids. We are starting to move into dangerous territory. The needle is entering the red zone.

Still. At least the people who wedged smoke bombs between their bum cheeks (who get to make their own decisions about what is and isn’t safe and sensible as of next week) had a nice time.
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you can thank the left for that, lost on brexit, lost out in elections and cant win any other election in this country while Scotland votes SNP.
 
If a keeper saves a penalty that is on target it is not a "miss" it is a save, the keepers primary job!
We only "missed" 1 penalty.

Thank you.

Irked of Leicester
:)
 
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