Brexit

[Gary Baldi]

The Tories have their own equally similar problems with Islamophobia hence why they've been quiet about Labour's Jewish issues.

As for Labour and anti-Semitism, whilst they adopted the internationally accepted definition, they didn't include 2 of the examples (iirc one was comparing Israeli Govt actions to those of the Nazis). Couple this with the reluctance or exceptionally slow disciplinary process for those accused of making anti-Semitic comments; and certain members (one who has just been re-elected supported by Momentum) of the NEC claiming there isn't any such anti-semitic comments and then getting angry when other NEC members say there are.

Again coupled with Jeremy Corbyn's inability to apologise or chastise those who make such comments combined with his obvious support for the Palestinian cause has turned it into a shitstorm for Labour.

And the Daily Mail has been running hard with this by pulling out any perceived slight against Jews from Labour people and jumping on anything to do with Corbyn and the Palestinians.

Don't get me wrong, no political party is free from stupidity from their leaders, members or MPs. The bullying in the Tory party was a complete disgrace, and the fudge thereafter was not good for them. Labour's anti-Semitism problem has become a party wide issue and seems to somehow be getting worse the more they try and fix it. The Tory Islam issues are thankfully smaller and seemingly dealt with in a proper procedure rather than a kangaroo court. I think they will pop up again as similar issues do across the spectrum. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

I can't help thinking that the Tory press is pushing this fairly hard as a distraction to the pig's ear the Conservatives are making of Brexit negotiations and their own internal divisions. But TBH I deliberately avoided trying to make this a Tory/Labour points scoring exercise when I asked the question!

On the matter itself, it seems that Labour's past and present sympathies with the plight of the Palestinians is what is causing this. Obviously nobody condones anyone blowing anyone else up, shooting them or highjacking their planes, but surely equally obviously the Palestinians have been treated appallingly by the state of Israel?

 

[Gary Baldi]

TBH, both sides of the press are pushing their own agendas - from the Sun to Grauniad. We are in the era of Fake News after all! Its fair to point out, the right side of politics has historically been the place for anti-Semitism, this in part is why there is such a furore now. Individuals like Margaret Hodge are rightly dismayed at seeing a far right issue penetrate the soul of the Labour party. Has some of the press combed the records for Corbyn's gaffe's? Yep. But of course, that applies to all sides of the debate in history, but Jezza is a more recent individual on the end of it. No different to David Cameron's time in the Bullingdon club

As for Israel. I've learnt not to comment on it. A complex political and religious matter whose sides are more entrenched than the Brexit debate.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

No different to David Cameron's time in the Bullingdon club

Sorry, didn't mean to use the phrase "pig's ear"

 

[Sheik djibouti]

'Fake news' really is a modern scourge, isn't it? Journalists have always stretched the truth to support whichever political side their paper / TV channel favours, and I first became aware of structured political spin under Blair's 1997 government, but nowadays it's hard to believe anything.

Showing my bias here, but I find the likes of the Independent and Guardian slightly more believable because they do, generally, source their stories whereas the Daily Mail tends to rant from the hip and expects their readership to lap it up, which they appear to do. That said, the Independent and Guardian will, I'm sure, choose not to publish stories that counter their editorial stances.

It's enough to make cynics out of all of us.

I think there has always been "fake" news (otherwise know as opinion occasionally and loosely based on fact) and political parties have always been quick to capitalise on it for their own benefit. Remember how the Sun made a big song and dance about "switching sides" prior to the 97 election to support New Labour and then crowed that "it woz the Sun wot won it"? Tells you all you need to know about political bias.

Dumbing down and sensationalisation have become the norm it seems, as has using fear to great effect for large swathes of the media It is very difficult to know who or what to trust (just look at the way much EU legislation has been reported in the likes of the DM year on year https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2016/06/22/debunking-years-of-tabloid-claims-about-europe - cows wearing nappies is a particular fave of mine!). Which is why corroborating stories against sites like fact checker or full facts is a useful exercise if you can be bothered or have the time.

I've seen it time and again that a report of a particular event/incident in the press does not fully reflect your own first hand experience. . and I guess it rarely can, but it is always worth bearing in mind and reading around the subject, rather than just accept as gospel!

 

[Marked Ox]

Don't get me wrong, no political party is free from stupidity from their leaders, members or MPs. The bullying in the Tory party was a complete disgrace, and the fudge thereafter was not good for them. Labour's anti-Semitism problem has become a party wide issue and seems to somehow be getting worse the more they try and fix it. The Tory Islam issues are thankfully smaller and seemingly dealt with in a proper procedure rather than a kangaroo court. I think they will pop up again as similar issues do across the spectrum. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.

Tbh, I think the Tory issue with Islamophobia is just as significant but they haven't got a Daily Mail equivalent blowing up every minor thing from years before into a major thing on their front page daily. The Tories are also managing to keep it in house a bit more.

That said Labour's situation is pathetically being dealt with by Corbyn and the NEC.

In summary, it is pathetic and demonstrates how bad our current politics are that people with these views can get into positions of power and make such statements openly.

 

[Gary Baldi]

Tbh, I think the Tory issue with Islamophobia is just as significant but they haven't got a Daily Mail equivalent blowing up every minor thing from years before into a major thing on their front page daily. The Tories are also managing to keep it in house a bit more.

That said Labour's situation is pathetically being dealt with by Corbyn and the NEC.

In summary, it is pathetic and demonstrates how bad our current politics are that people with these views can get into positions of power and make such statements openly.

The Tories have an issue, but is it entrenched from top to bottom? Nope. If there was significant dirt there as we unfortunately have with Labour, it would be out there already. You can't hide that much! Are there a bunch of home counties little Englanders moaning in their clubs? Don't doubt it! There is no deflection from how horrid parts of the Labour have become recently.

I think there has always been "fake" news (otherwise know as opinion occasionally and loosely based on fact) and political parties have always been quick to capitalise on it for their own benefit. Remember how the Sun made a big song and dance about "switching sides" prior to the 97 election to support New Labour and then crowed that "it woz the Sun wot won it"? Tells you all you need to know about political bias.

Dumbing down and sensationalisation have become the norm it seems, as has using fear to great effect for large swathes of the media It is very difficult to know who or what to trust (just look at the way much EU legislation has been reported in the likes of the DM year on year https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2016/06/22/debunking-years-of-tabloid-claims-about-europe - cows wearing nappies is a particular fave of mine!). Which is why corroborating stories against sites like fact checker or full facts is a useful exercise if you can be bothered or have the time.

I've seen it time and again that a report of a particular event/incident in the press does not fully reflect your own first hand experience. . and I guess it rarely can, but it is always worth bearing in mind and reading around the subject, rather than just accept as gospel!

We live in a post truth world now. When one of Trump's lawyers said the truth doesn't matter, he was unfortunately right. Does anyone care as long as they get there moment of vitriol or anger?

I have nigh on given up watching the news because I can't help but feel I'm being spun to by someone - whatever that channel is.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

I can't help thinking that some of our current political woes (on both sides) stem from the creation of it as a 'profession', with people going to university and taking courses with the sole intention of 'getting into politics'. It used to be that people who went into politics had usually worked at a local level (whether in their constituency association, trade union, as a local parish/county/borough councillor etc) as well as having a real world job. Their rise through the party structure was because of their talent, organising and persuading skills as well as being able to compromise on one hand while having a burning desire to change things allied to a set of core beliefs.

The lack of some of these skills and experiences leads to a desire to 'keep your job' in the party structure and so people are less willing to put their heads above the parapet when they disagree with something being done.

 

[Yellow River]

Labour are, frankly, f***ed as an opposition power, let alone a potential future government. And it really bothers me to have to say that.

Having made massive popular gains at the last election, appealing to the open-minded young in particular as 'something different', Labour have allowed themselves to be infiltrated by odious extremists within Momentum, and their leader has proved incompetent in dealing with anti-Semitism, perceived or not.

A shame, as the Tories are pathetically divided as well, and in any other era would be challenged for power.

Incompetent? absolutely, but more worryingly Corbyn’s actions (or lack of them!) and words suggest it’s more than just incompetence.

I’m a classic floating voter but no way on earth will I vote Labour while Corbyn, MacDonald, Abbot, Momentum and the hard left are in control of the party.

‘Kinder, gentler politics’ My a**e.

 

[Paul Cannell]

If you read the IHCR document there are parts that arguably (and I'm not sure which side of the argument I'm on) bar any criticism of the activities of the "State of Israel" on the grounds that such criticism is anti-semitic. There is no doubt that the document itself has been produced by friends of Israel (this should be a surprise to nobody).

I would not personally subscribe to that agreement since it may prevent me stating what is (documented and) true: that Israel is an apartheid state that seized (i.e. stole) lands owned by people living there and has ethnically cleansed and continues to ethnically cleanse that stolen territory of it's indigenous (autochthonous) population. A country which (and this was voted on and approved by the Knesset this year) enshrines in law the treatment of a section of it's population as second-class.

Labour's position is, as on many subjects, fu[i[p/i]cked up. Not because of Corbyn but because of years sorry decades of arrivism (I think this means people going into politics as career), the legacy of Bliar's Tory New Labour and of course the laughably-titled Hard Left (note that Corbyn's communistic program at the last mock-election was considerably milder than those of the 40s and 50s) and their unfortunate policy of not understanding their friends.

I'll go further. I don't see discussions with Hamas (the legally elected government of Palestine in 2006 and victims of a US / Israeli coup) as a bad thing, nor with Hezbollah, Lebanon's only effective social service organisation for Muslims. I don't recognise any logic that they are terrorists and the state of israel isn't.

Anyway, this whole thing's not about Jews, it;s about discrediting Labour so that no matter how incompetent the Tories are a Corbynite Labour party (or any other sort that might make the sorts of social change that would benefit the likes of danny) won't get in power.

 

[Paul Cannell]

.... I first became aware of structured political spin under Blair's 1997 government, but nowadays it's hard to believe anything.

Sorry, Pete this is no way a dig at you but since you express yourself articulately you leave gaps that need to be filled.

Has nobody heard of the 'Zinoviev Letter'.

Look, the world's not set up for the sort of people who post on here. Or the vast majority of the ones we meet. All a person like me can do is refuse to believe, stay under the radar and make the best of the situation; like, find the beach beneath the pavement.

 

[dannyc]

Labour are, frankly, f***ed as an opposition power, let alone a potential future government. And it really bothers me to have to say that.

Having made massive popular gains at the last election, appealing to the open-minded young in particular as 'something different', Labour have allowed themselves to be infiltrated by odious extremists within Momentum, and their leader has proved incompetent in dealing with anti-Semitism, perceived or not.

A shame, as the Tories are pathetically divided as well, and in any other era would be challenged for power.

so do you think we need a new party to vote for now?

 

[Sharp Edges]

Incompetent? absolutely, but more worryingly Corbyn’s actions (or lack of them!) and words suggest it’s more than just incompetence.

I’m a classic floating voter but no way on earth will I vote Labour while Corbyn, MacDonald, Abbot, Momentum and the hard left are in control of the party.

‘Kinder, gentler politics’ My a**e.

Agree with every word of that. I thought Corbyns stance of upsetting Jews was a (devious) ploy to win the muslim vote which he will need to gain power. As time has moved on he clearly isnt that clever and has a built up hatred of jews/Israel. I actually found his interview about the wreath laying quite disturbing given his appearance to pay his respects at the funerals of IRA terrorists.
Im approaching 50 and was a lifelong labour voter but didnt vote at the last election, I will never vote for Corbyn and will never vote Tory.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

I will never vote for Corbyn and will never vote Tory.

And therein lies exactly the problem. Neither of the parties are 'vote-for-able' at the moment, both have horrible problems and potential splits and neither is doing it's job properly. So, many people (like you and me) will abstain - or spoil their vote - because they can't stomach either of them, thus leaving the field open for extremists on either wing. Add that to an uncertain international future and you have a recipe for disaster.

 

[cassox]

Unfortunately a "new" party will enable that traitorous Corbyn in thru the back door.,

 

[Sharp Edges]

Unfortunately a "new" party will enable that traitorous Corbyn in thru the back door.,

Would it? Our options at this present time are a party that introduces austerity for the majority and tax cuts for the (rich) minority. A party that is lead by a lunatic and has surrounded himself by lunatics or a party that has spent its entire existence whining about the first past the post system and we should have PR, we have a PR vote and they immediately introduce a policy of wanting another PR vote on the same thing because they didn't get the result they wanted.

Maybe its just me but I would like a party that:

Helps those in need, not those that are lazy.
Rewards hard work, not exploitation.
Allows people into the country based on what they offer rather than what we offer (benefits/tax haven).
Properly invests in infrastructure (schools, hospitals, roads, rail, reservoirs) paid for by a fair tax system to individuals and business.

I could go on but it will never happen so is pointless.

 

[Marked Ox]

The Tories have an issue, but is it entrenched from top to bottom? Nope. If there was significant dirt there as we unfortunately have with Labour, it would be out there already. You can't hide that much! Are there a bunch of home counties little Englanders moaning in their clubs? Don't doubt it! There is no deflection from how horrid parts of the Labour have become recently.


We live in a post truth world now. When one of Trump's lawyers said the truth doesn't matter, he was unfortunately right. Does anyone care as long as they get there moment of vitriol or anger?

I have nigh on given up watching the news because I can't help but feel I'm being spun to by someone - whatever that channel is.

The Tory/Islamophobia issue is from top to bottom of the Tory Party if the interview I watched of the head of a Tory Muslim group is to believed. I can't remember his name but he was pretty adamant and had come across it himself personally.

 

[Gary Baldi]

The Tory/Islamophobia issue is from top to bottom of the Tory Party if the interview I watched of the head of a Tory Muslim group is to believed. I can't remember his name but he was pretty adamant and had come across it himself personally.

If it was, it would be in the news constantly, like Labour's anti-Semitism. I saw the interview and it felt as much of a slight against BoJo and a bit of a moan, than a hardcore case of rampant Islamophobia. For one, if as you say it's top to bottom, why did Sajid Javid get promoted? I'd think they would prohibit Muslims being ministers if that is the case or not even have Muslims as MPs full stop. Just doesn't stack up to outright hatred - the little Englanders in their clubs, sure. Unlike Labour, where it's all got sadly unseemly

 

[ZeroTheHero]

Sorry but that's quite one-eyed. The internal row in the Labout Party is because the vast majority of them are not anti-semitic, but some at the top are alleged to be! Most people (in both parties) are decent human beings - but, as when you are cooking kidney beans (?!!), sometimes the poison and lightweight froth seems to float to the top.

 

[Scotters]

Baroness Warsi has been pretty conclusive that she thinks Islamophobia is a major problem for the Tory party. The party's actions over Grenfell and Windrush have also not done much for their reputation on ethnic minorities.

Personally I'm not sure to what level anti-semitism is a genuine problem in the Labour party. I think it's unfortunate for anyone who's interested in actually dealing with anti-semitism that the issue's been co-opted by those in the media and parliament that are anti-Corbyn at any costs.