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Brexit

Local countries for local people.
 

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Time to take out the trash
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We are leaving. There will be an endless "transition" until those who lost are convinced they can win by some weaseled reasoning and democracy will be declared dead.
 
TBH all this talk about "transition" post Brexit is worth moaning about. :)
29th March 2019 should be the day that we say goodbye to the Club we don`t want to be a member of, what we joined was a European Market based on free trade.........what it has become is a desire for a United States of Europe.
There has been sufficient time to sort out the high level legislation, what seems to lack is the political will.
I have no issue with us paying for what we are legally committed but as of that day our subs stop.
If that is "Cliff Edge Brexit" so be it, drop back to WTO rules & crack on trading with people that want to trade with us...and there will be plenty of them.
 
Flean said:
And I thought us remainers were known to moan ;)
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Oh, the Breximoaners are becoming very vocal such as:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42493735

Nevermind, the Daily Mail or Telegraph headlines/main articles when the Govt is defeated over Brexit in Parliament or in the Courts.

The hypocrisy of the Bow Group's chairman is fantastic. Then again the hypocrisy of Lord Tebbit etc is up there as well moaning about somebody pushing their view when it isn't Govt policy considering he's done it most of his career involving the EU, and the Tory Party.
 
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Essexyellows said:
TBH all this talk about "transition" post Brexit is worth moaning about. :)
29th March 2019 should be the day that we say goodbye to the Club we don`t want to be a member of, what we joined was a European Market based on free trade.........what it has become is a desire for a United States of Europe.
There has been sufficient time to sort out the high level legislation, what seems to lack is the political will.
I have no issue with us paying for what we are legally committed but as of that day our subs stop.
If that is "Cliff Edge Brexit" so be it, drop back to WTO rules & crack on trading with people that want to trade with us...and there will be plenty of them.
Click to expand...

To be fair, a Cliff Edge Brexit would be political suicide for May & co.

Firstly, because it would lead to an exodus of financial services from London and an (in the short term at least) economic downturn for the country. Those usually lead to the incumbent party getting turfed out.

Secondly, because it would mean they'd have to put a new border up - either in the middle of Ireland or the Irish Sea - and either of those things would p**s of the DUP and lose May her Commons majority.

And thirdly because 48% of the population would hate it and likely wouldn't vote for her again.

Now you might say that politicians should be bigger than that, and should put the will of the (slender) majority of the people above their own personal ambitions. But they're politicians, and they didn't get where they are today on principles.
 
Ah yes the oft quoted "exodus of financial services"......... BoE will allow EU banks to operate without creating subsidiaries so thats a bit fluffy. A border doesn`t have to be hard or physical.....technology has moved on from that & the DUP won`t be needed if/when the money currently flowing to the EU remains within the UK system.
Slender majority it was but the not respecting that result will be the death of democracy. ;)
 
Flean said:
Haven't you already noticed major banks are finding premises on the continent? Do you honestly believe that Britain will be economically stronger with no deal with their neighbours and the biggest trading block in the world? Seriously?

You can buy a stake in a new pointless ship though ;)
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National Audit Office:
The scale of the support currently provided to UK banks has fallen from a peak of £955bn to £512bn, but the amount of cash currently borrowed by the government to support banks has risen by £7bn [to a total of £124bn] since December 2009.
According to the NAO report, overall the banks have paid £9.1bn in fees for the government's guarantees and indemnities that have peaked at nearly £1 trillion. The government has so far not had to pay out significantly on any of these liabilities.
RBS and Lloyds, which the government bought controlling stakes in, won't pay back until they are re-privatised. Other banks have paid interest on loans:
• Of the £21.59bn outstanding loan to Northern Rock, the company paid £0.58bn in interest in the last financial year.
• Of the £8.55bn outstanding to Bradford and Bingley,the taxpayer received £0.38bn in interest last year.
• Of the £26.05bn loaned to other non nationalised failing institutions, it received £0.52bn back.

Professor Desmond (Treasury Adviser Rtd):
The costs of the crisis are not simply the costs to the Treasury important those these may be. These are indeed only a pinprick compared to the costs for all of us due to the losses of output caused by the recession and in subsequent years caused by the financial crisis. Output [GDP ] is still some 4% below the previous peak in 2008, and during the years since the crisis [2008-2011] output would have grown by around 2.5% per annum but for the crisis. Output is scarcely growing at all during 2011 and will also grow well below its trend rate in the following years [2012 and 2013].

I have estimated taking into account the losses of output that would have occurred since 2008 without the financial crisis caused by the reckless lending of the banks, and projecting the losses forward until the end of 2012, that the total cost to the economy - all of us - is around 11 to 13% of GDP."



So a few global banks decide to up sticks? Ho hum, likewise some folks "cheap booze & fags" trips maybe more difficult. Retaining a lot of money within our own governance will more than compensate for the collateral damage. :)
Trade .... ironic that what the Common Market started as, is held up as the be all & end all. Business will sort that out, there won`t be any tit for tat tariffs or such like.
 
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@Flean ....... Leavers are optimists .Remainers are pessimists.
I done a straw poll amongst folk I know and its pretty spot on. :)

Whilst the UK has lost a lot of traditional industry, a lot of what has replaced it is truly cutting edge, be that in health, manufacturing or otherwise. I truly believe (rightly or wrongly....my gamble!) that if we focus & invest more on our own infrastructure and future, rather than dragging others up to where we were 30 years ago, we (UK PLC) can have a brighter future than wasting decades being held back by others.
 
Agree with the pessimism / optimism point... Maybe Realist / dreamer is more succinct though ;)
Not too sure about saying the UK is 30 years ahead of other eu countries though. Could also be turned around.. Take health care and transport networks in the UK and compare them to Germany / Netherlands / Scandinavia etc...
 
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I’ll be glad when we are finally out. There are so many career politicians trying to talk this country down because they feel brexit is doom and gloom. The likes of Heseltine and Adonis are bitter and twisted individuals who will never accept the verdict that was given in the referendum.
When I hear that Clegg has been knighted I wonder why. Is it for promising students a good deal...and then backtracking on it when in government? Or for services to Brussels?
A failed politician who wrecked his own party and reducing his MPs to a rump...rewarded with a knighthood.
My only surprise in the New Years Honours List was that Ted Heath wasn’t rewarded with a posthumous peerage
 
Peterdev said:
I’ll be glad when we are finally out. There are so many career politicians trying to talk this country down because they feel brexit is doom and gloom. The likes of Heseltine and Adonis are bitter and twisted individuals who will never accept the verdict that was given in the referendum.
When I hear that Clegg has been knighted I wonder why. Is it for promising students a good deal...and then backtracking on it when in government? Or for services to Brussels?
A failed politician who wrecked his own party and reducing his MPs to a rump...rewarded with a knighthood.
My only surprise in the New Years Honours List was that Ted Heath wasn’t rewarded with a posthumous peerage
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They're bitter and twisted due to having a different view to you? That must make all the Pro Brexit Politicians utterly bitter and twisted then as plenty of them have moaned for decades following your criteria.

And Nick Clegg, a failed politician?! The bloke was a key part in one of the better Govts and had a long political career. Unfortunately, the Lib Dems got blamed and the Tories got away with the mistakes by the coalition.
 
Don’t see it that way at all. The likes of Heseltine warning that brexit will be worse than Corbyn. We’re leaving and he should get over it. Keir Starmer saying there should be another referendum...what part of no does he not understand?
I’m not so sure he was a good part of the coalition. Caved in on tuition fees, and the electorate rewarded him with a massive reduction in MPs at the local election and subsequent general election.
He then claimed he acted in the national interest.
Then he gets awarded a knighthood. I just feel that are far better cases for awards than career politicians or any politician for that matter.
 
Peterdev said:
Don’t see it that way at all. The likes of Heseltine warning that brexit will be worse than Corbyn. We’re leaving and he should get over it. Keir Starmer saying there should be another referendum...what part of no does he not understand?
I’m not so sure he was a good part of the coalition. Caved in on tuition fees, and the electorate rewarded him with a massive reduction in MPs at the local election and subsequent general election.
He then claimed he acted in the national interest.
Then he gets awarded a knighthood. I just feel that are far better cases for awards than career politicians or any politician for that matter.
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So it is because they have a different viewpoint to you.

Why should they get over it when they have a conviction that Brexit is in their opinion going to be bad for Britain, just as the pro Brexiters had the same about the EU prior to the Referendum?

Also, Heseltine could be right so he is right to warn as that is his viewpoint. Free speech and all that. Keir Starmer has every right to campaign for another referendum, just like the pro Brexiters did for all those years.

If they have to get over it, why did the pro Brexiters not have to get over it as previously we had a referendum to join the European project? If you think the Brexiters would have stopped had they lost the Referendum then you would be deluding yourself.

As for Nick Clegg and the Lib Dems, they tempered/limited Tory policy that was heavily austerity driven through the initial agreement and subsequently. There were plenty of occasions that the Tories were howling because they were defeated due to the Lib Dems refusal to support them in Parliament. This has been amply demonstrated by the subsequent Tory Govts.

You are obsessed by the tuition fees situation. Do you realise that for a coalition to happen, both sides have to compromise to reach agreement? The Lib Dems prioritised changing the voting system instead+ and unfortunately it failed* as the system does need reform.

*Whether the best alternative was put forward is highly debatable.
+The Tories had the larger share of the agenda considering they were the bigger party.
 
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I'll try and put it another way. A lack of acceptance about Brexit from people like Clegg, Heseltine and Starmer is frustrating because it is happening and their lack of acceptance about that is a shame. It's understandable to a point because its a very significant change from the day to day, but the complaining on the sidelines isn't doing them many favours in a highly divisive and polarised atmosphere.

They still have not moved along the below graph and are stuck at step 2 or rolling back to it. It's happening, lets make it the best we can and Make Britain Great Again. Ooops, let's just, erm, yeah, let's make it the best we can for everyone.
6a00d8345161c269e201053680a279970c-pi
 
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Gary Baldi said:
I'll try and put it another way. A lack of acceptance about Brexit from people like Clegg, Heseltine and Starmer is frustrating because it is happening and their lack of acceptance about that is a shame. It's understandable to a point because its a very significant change from the day to day, but the complaining on the sidelines isn't doing them many favours in a highly divisive and polarised atmosphere.

They still have not moved along the below graph and are stuck at step 2 or rolling back to it. It's happening, lets make it the best we can and Make Britain Great Again. Ooops, let's just, erm, yeah, let's make it the best we can for everyone.
6a00d8345161c269e201053680a279970c-pi
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I agree it may be frustrating for Brexiteers but still all those Brexiteers didn't accept or move on after they lost the initial Referendum to join the Europe project. They kept chuntering on and sniping, the difference being for many years, even decades. This is no different. It doesn't make them bitter and twisted as was the original assertion.

It is a highly divisive and polarised politics at the moment and their statements won't change that for the better or worse. By your criteria, I assume you consider the comments/letters to the Press by the hard Brexiteers (such as Jacob Rees-Mogg) every time something other than hard Brexit is a possibility are on a par with Starmer, Heseltine etc? What about the Daily Mail/Daily Telegraph and their inflammatory headlines (ie. Tory MPs who voted for the recent amendment or the Judges who ruled the Govt go before Parliament with Brexit) who are picking up on language used by Hard Brexiteers such as Farage?

Likewise, those pro Europe politicians have every right to temper what they see as the worse possibilities of Brexit (by making arguments to stay in the single market for example). That is how our Parliamentary democracy works, the Govt gets challenged on its policies (and on Brexit negotiations they showing themselves to be a bit useless) whether by Opposition Parties or individual MPs.
 
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I’m not against free speech as you may think.
I’m just getting tired of these old politicians telling us the electorate is wrong to have voted the way we did.
On the contrary not obsessed with tuition fees...it’s just yet another broken promise that was only made to get more votes from the 18-21 age group. Much like Corbyn did last year except then it made a difference to the Labour vote.
I think the country has become tired of voting, second general election in two years in June with a campaign lasting seven weeks.
I’m sure many of us just want the government to get on with the brexit negotiations and conclude the long lasting saga
 
Peterdev said:
I’m not against free speech as you may think.
I’m just getting tired of these old politicians telling us the electorate is wrong to have voted the way we did.
On the contrary not obsessed with tuition fees...it’s just yet another broken promise that was only made to get more votes from the 18-21 age group. Much like Corbyn did last year except then it made a difference to the Labour vote.
I think the country has become tired of voting, second general election in two years in June with a campaign lasting seven weeks.
I’m sure many of us just want the government to get on with the brexit negotiations and conclude the long lasting saga
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Did you get tired of politicians like Farage and other hard Brexiteers when they kept going on about Europe as that went on for years, decades even?

The Tories had plenty of broken promises from their manifesto as well. It would be impossible for both parties to have had their full manifesto included, so of course some commitments would be jettisoned as part of a coalition. Rightly, the Tories got a bigger slice of the agreement as they were the bigger party.

Very possibly people are tired of voting especially after May stupidly called the last GE.

I wish the Govt knew what they wanted Brexit to look like as their approach has been farcical. That should have been decided when May first took over as PM rather than at a meeting (assuming agreement was reached) a few weeks ago.

As it is, this lack of direction has led to Govt Ministers publically squabbling from the start, coupled with threats of voting against from Tory backbenchers on both sides, stupid legal challenges to stop Parliamentary oversight of the Govt actions, and Minister's making failing threats to Tory backbenchers to try to win parliamentary votes which has helped make this Govt a laughing stock.
 
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Marked Ox said:
I agree it may be frustrating for Brexiteers but still all those Brexiteers didn't accept or move on after they lost the initial Referendum to join the Europe project. They kept chuntering on and sniping, the difference being for many years, even decades. This is no different. It doesn't make them bitter and twisted as was the original assertion.
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Clegg is most certainly very bitter. I feel sorry for him because he's embarrassing himself by basically firing bullets into a hurricane; Messrs Neil and Marr had some cringeworthy interviews with him in the summer. Starmer is following the Labour party message of total incoherence.

There will always be the anti Europe old codgers in the Tory party but they largely were very much laughed at for many years weren't they? No difference to the trade unionists in the Labour party, etc. I'd suggest his Tonyness laid the foundation for Brexit all those years ago. Which Farage ruthlessly exploited.

As for the Europe project, one can argue we didn't agree to where we ended up, we were largely Henry 8th'd into it. Hence some peoples frustration and desire for a vote before anything more fundamental happened.
 
Gary Baldi said:
Clegg is most certainly very bitter. I feel sorry for him because he's embarrassing himself by basically firing bullets into a hurricane; Messrs Neil and Marr had some cringeworthy interviews with him in the summer. Starmer is following the Labour party message of total incoherence.

There will always be the anti Europe old codgers in the Tory party but they largely were very much laughed at for many years weren't they? No difference to the trade unionists in the Labour party, etc. I'd suggest his Tonyness laid the foundation for Brexit all those years ago. Which Farage ruthlessly exploited.

As for the Europe project, one can argue we didn't agree to where we ended up, we were largely Henry 8th'd into it. Hence some peoples frustration and desire for a vote before anything more fundamental happened.
Click to expand...

Doesn't change that they are both the different sides of the same coin. Those old codgers like Tebbit or Redwood you mean who were very influential in Tory Party.
 
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