Brexit

[tonyw]

I think Corbyn actually got this one right when he said "The Chequers compromise took two years to reach and two days to unravel"

I thought, given the complexity of the negotiations, that it was going to be an impossible task to complete Brexit by March 2019. I had, however, thought that Britain might have been able to agree on its own negotiating position by that time. Seems like my low opinion on the competence of this government fell nowhere near low enough.

 

[Deleted member 462]

I think Corbyn actually got this one right when he said "The Chequers compromise took two years to reach and two days to unravel"

I thought, given the complexity of the negotiations, that it was going to be an impossible task to complete Brexit by March 2019. I had, however, thought that Britain might have been able to agree on its own negotiating position by that time. Seems like my low opinion on the competence of this government fell nowhere near low enough.

Don’t panic, once Diane Abbott gets to work on it, it will be much clearer in no time [emoji15]

 

[tonyw]

Don't get me wrong.....I have no belief that the other side would be doing any better.

But even as a remainer, at this stage I'd have more respect for May - or any UK leader - if they just said "**** it, the people voted for Brexit, so we're going to do Brexit"; leave all EU institutions, take back decision making on everything but accept that significant tariffs would have to go on everything being sold back and forth with the continent, and accept that a border has to go up in Ireland (or the North Sea....one of the two).

I think the possibility of economic catastrophe for the country would be there, but I still think it would be preferable than this slow death of trying to find a compromise that all sides will accept, but noone will like......if such a compromise position even exists.

 

[Marked Ox]

Don’t panic, once Diane Abbott gets to work on it, it will be much clearer in no time [emoji15]

Tbf, she would have had to go some to do a worse job.

 

[beyondthefourth]

Don't get me wrong.....I have no belief that the other side would be doing any better.

But even as a remainer, at this stage I'd have more respect for May - or any UK leader - if they just said "**** it, the people voted for Brexit, so we're going to do Brexit"; leave all EU institutions, take back decision making on everything but accept that significant tariffs would have to go on everything being sold back and forth with the continent, and accept that a border has to go up in Ireland (or the North Sea....one of the two).

I think the possibility of economic catastrophe for the country would be there, but I still think it would be preferable than this slow death of trying to find a compromise that all sides will accept, but noone will like......if such a compromise position even exists.

Pretty much the issue. Just over 50% of the country voted for Brexit, but probably less than 10% of the country will be truly happy with whatever deal gets reached in the end.

 

[Gary Baldi]

Then you have to blame the whole Tory Party. In particular David Cameron for using a national issue to fight a party issue (something Major etc all dealth without such need), all the Cabinet members since Cameron resigned and those backbench MPs (on both sides of the argument) including as the obvious one Jacob Rees-Mogg (and the European Research Group) are equally, or more so in some cases, culpable.

I'd go further and blame various previous Govts as equally culpable. The lack of "people's votes" on various integration issues left a lot to boil under the surface and the naivety of certain actions caused issues. To be fair, the issue of Europe 5 years ago was a different one to the one 20 years ago due to the changes that occured in the UK in that period. When Major was PM, there was less integration than there was under Cameron wasn't there?

And let's face it, Labour are as divided as the Tories. Both main parties are as hopelessly divided as the other - which is a national embarrassment in itself.

 

[FalmouthOx]

May is a remainer. This is a cleverly hatched ploy between the EU and UK to use a media to create fear and worry that we wont get a deal which we are told "would be awful" only to then come to a compromise that in all but in name keeps us in. We are also constantly brainwashed that if there was another vote we would vote remain, and that no one realised the "cost" of leaving. Again this is smoke and mirrors to try to impact public opinion and totally avoidable. Why do we even have David Davies and a party of 4 others making financial agreements and commitments on our behalf. There is an irony that we complained about a faceless EU, yet how many of the other Brexit team do most people really know. Put there by May, imagine if they did a bad job or came up with an over expensive deal. Would we all start to think that maybe it might be better to do it all again and this time vote remain? lol

May was put there to deceive the electorate - she has succeeded in creating the fear but has badly failed the whole democratic process and has no credibility. She will be gone shortly - think way more than 48 votes - and we then need to get someone who do what is surely quite simple. Maintain the trading flow and allow free movement of EU people but divorce at FAIR VALUE rather than allow the EU to try to make an example out of the very country which was so key to them still having their freedom.

So what is the divorce bill so high? Why havent we got the worlds largest Merger/Aquisitions firm, totting up the assets we have been paying towards for years, and looking at our long term commitments (and what our share of those assets would be worth) and then netting to come up with a FAIR value to leave????? EU block would retain ownership of the assets and we have effectively a SWAP trade. Far better than arbitrarily plucking fingers out of the air. They are all playing poker and seems we are bad at it. Whether that number is 20, 40, 50 or 100 blliion, it is just a balance sheet entry!! There can be no immediate lump sum payment - it doesnt even work like that in football!!! - and there is a risk of de-stablising the UK if we are forced to increase 10% income tax hikes to meet the divorce costs. The "debt" can be amortised over 25, maybe 50 years, so that the social impact is nullified. German car manufacturers dont want a nation of suddenly poor Brits with no disposable income who cant afford to buy their cars any more than the UK Government want riots on the streets of every City (and town). It doesnt take rocket scientists to come up with a deal - people do get divorced! - maybe if thy worked 24/7 and 7 days a week, being fed pizzas under the door, then we could get it done within the current timeline. They meet for a few hours each month and then complain we are running out of time.

Governments across the world are not listening to their people. Unrest is brewing. The "pain" we will all feel for turning our backs on the establishment is nothing more than part of the "fear game". Oh Mrs May - "come in number 13, your time is up",

 

[Gary Baldi]

Don't get me wrong.....I have no belief that the other side would be doing any better.

But even as a remainer, at this stage I'd have more respect for May - or any UK leader - if they just said "**** it, the people voted for Brexit, so we're going to do Brexit"; leave all EU institutions, take back decision making on everything but accept that significant tariffs would have to go on everything being sold back and forth with the continent, and accept that a border has to go up in Ireland (or the North Sea....one of the two).

I think the possibility of economic catastrophe for the country would be there, but I still think it would be preferable than this slow death of trying to find a compromise that all sides will accept, but noone will like......if such a compromise position even exists.

And the point on WTO tariffs is they are not mandatory to trade. Countries can lower them or remove them - but probably not wise to do on a piecemeal basis as it would become unmanageable.

 

[Marked Ox]

I'd go further and blame various previous Govts as equally culpable. The lack of "people's votes" on various integration issues left a lot to boil under the surface and the naivety of certain actions caused issues. To be fair, the issue of Europe 5 years ago was a different one to the one 20 years ago due to the changes that occured in the UK in that period. When Major was PM, there was less integration than there was under Cameron wasn't there?

And let's face it, Labour are as divided as the Tories. Both main parties are as hopelessly divided as the other - which is a national embarrassment in itself.

Agreed both parties are divided over Europe but then Labour never offered a referendum to solve an internal Party issue on the subject which is the big difference.

There was a small degree of less integration under Major but the big difference was the ex-Warsaw Pact countries that joined subsequently.

 

[Navegante]

May is a remainer. This is a cleverly hatched ploy between the EU and UK to use a media to create fear and worry that we wont get a deal which we are told "would be awful" only to then come to a compromise that in all but in name keeps us in.

Which Media is this chap? Mail? Express? Torygraph? Murdoch's empire?!

 

[Gary Baldi]

Agreed both parties are divided over Europe but then Labour never offered a referendum to solve an internal Party issue on the subject which is the big difference.

There was a small degree of less integration under Major but the big difference was the ex-Warsaw Pact countries that joined subsequently.

Neither side has managed to come up with a coherent policy so far. It's rehashes of a customs union deal that the EU would be mad to accept. Which is why Maybot's intransigence only makes it worse. She's wasted time on a dead donkey that doesn't deliver on what she said it would and put herself into a poor negotiating position.

Quite why she had a department doing work on a white paper only to do it herself in isolation, says a lot.

 

[Marked Ox]

Neither side has managed to come up with a coherent policy so far. It's rehashes of a customs union deal that the EU would be mad to accept. Which is why Maybot's intransigence only makes it worse. She's wasted time on a dead donkey that doesn't deliver on what she said it would and put herself into a poor negotiating position.

Quite why she had a department doing work on a white paper only to do it herself in isolation, says a lot.

The fact that neither side (Remain MPs/Hardline Leave MPs) have a clear majority in the Tory Party meant a compromise was the only option, it wouldn't have mattered who was leader.

 

[Gary Baldi]

The fact that neither side (Remain MPs/Hardline Leave MPs) have a clear majority in the Tory Party meant a compromise was the only option, it wouldn't have mattered who was leader.

No but what Maybot came up with was something different sides would agree on. Not workable or practical. The hardline Remainers are probably the only ones I've not seen complain too loudly. Quite how Maybot thinks we can do trade deals being inline closely with the EU is amazing.

 

[Peterdev]

I’m getting very pessimistic that May will get us out of the EU.
The EU trio are no doubt rubbing their hands in glee with two of the cabinet gone. And as for Gove claiming it’s a good deal she has formulated, he must be angling for promotion.
It looks to me like the EU will reject the proposition, anyway. They are as flexible as a metal girder.
Parliament will no doubt have a vote. They won’t trust the public to have the intelligence to make a sensible vote

 

[Leysboy]

Nigel Farage would of sorted this out long ago.

 

[HayfieldYellow]

Nigel Farage would of sorted this out long ago.

Are you serious? Farage?

The lazy creep who's busy sucking up to Donald Trump, whining on Twitter, taking out a German passport and sorting out his EU pension, despite having the second-worst attendance record in Brussels?

He couldn't even sort out the shambolic ragbag of loons that make up the rump of his own party, let alone do anything about a complex diplomatic nightmare like Brexit.

No, like all leading Brexiters, all ever does is complain, tell lies, count his cash and blame the EU for everything.

 

[Marked Ox]

Are you serious? Farage?

The lazy creep who's busy sucking up to Donald Trump, whining on Twitter, taking out a German passport and sorting out his EU pension, despite having the second-worst attendance record in Brussels?

He couldn't even sort out the shambolic ragbag of loons that make up the rump of his own party, let alone do anything about a complex diplomatic nightmare like Brexit.

No, like all leading Brexiters, all ever does is complain, tell lies, count his cash and blame the EU for everything.

I suspect you may be whooshed.

 

[makv]

Are you serious? Farage?

The lazy creep who's busy sucking up to Donald Trump, whining on Twitter, taking out a German passport and sorting out his EU pension, despite having the second-worst attendance record in Brussels?

He couldn't even sort out the shambolic ragbag of loons that make up the rump of his own party, let alone do anything about a complex diplomatic nightmare like Brexit.

No, like all leading Brexiters, all ever does is complain, tell lies, count his cash and blame the EU for everything.

I suspect you may be whooshed.

I suspect so too

 

[HayfieldYellow]

I suspect you may be whooshed.

Fair enough, if so. But plenty of Brexiters seem to think he's some sort of political genius.

 

[makv]

I suspect you may be whooshed.

Fair enough, if so. But plenty of Brexiters seem to think he's some sort of political genius.

Is that a double woosh?