National News Brexit - the Deal or No Deal poll

Brexit - Deal or No Deal?

  • Deal

    Votes: 51 29.3%
  • No Deal

    Votes: 77 44.3%
  • Call in the Donald

    Votes: 2 1.1%
  • Call in Noel Edmonds

    Votes: 8 4.6%
  • I don't care anymore

    Votes: 36 20.7%

  • Total voters
    174

SteMerritt

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All hypothetical, democracy will finally prevail after only 22 more sleeps as we exit the putrid EU Mafia.
My fear is democracy will return a result that doesn't allow a majority for either Remain or Leave, and we are stuck paralysed again...
 

Sarge

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Does anyone remember the vote leave campaign leaflet from 2016? ...here it is ... interesting part circled btw ( says nothing about 'no deal' nor does it say anything about 'oct 31st 2019', either! ... this is the vote leave campaigns own propaganda !!!) .....

72431903_10157295500461223_8704509141042855936_n.jpg
 

Sarge

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taking back control .... borrowed from social media earlier today ...

This afternoon I had the great pleasure of seeing how wonderful it is for Great Britain to “take back control“ in celebration of Brexit.

I thought I would share my joy with you.

Having queued in the post office for an hour to be told that I had to join another queue as only one lady was trained to help me, I joined her queue to wait for 20 minutes.

The charming lady told me to join a further 10 minute queue for a photo machine as unlike passports it could not be a digital photo. Armed with my paper photos I rejoined a queue for another 30 minutes.

The lady asked me which European countries I would be driving in over the next year. As I will be driving in several countries I was thrilled to find that I had taken so much control back that I would need four international driving permits, each inscribed with details of the Convention on Road Traffic of 19th of September 1949; into which decade I definitely felt I had now lapsed.

A rather scruffy piece of card was then inscribed manually with my details. My photograph was glued into it. This process was repeated four times.

Having parted with £28 for the privilege of driving in Europe, I was thrilled to find that I could take back control and repeat the whole process and make the same payment next year; subject to increase by Her Majesty’s government.

As I left the post office I was overjoyed to see that the pound had fallen dramatically further today thus ensuring that I could feel even more impoverished than previous falls in Sterling have already made me.

Nevertheless, having reverted to a period of my early childhood when travel was so much more difficult, I will benefit from feeling awfully nostalgic while I drive in poverty through Europe, with my four antediluvian card passes.

I’m really looking forward to taking back more control on 31 October.

73088982_2286123134941698_1947862020577558528_n.jpg
 

tonyw

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Re-entry? Why not? It only took 40 years for a second vote. We last voted to remain in the EEC...if you can`t see the difference...
I'm sure you know all this and are just on the wind-up...….

…..but of course the challenge would be that Britain currently holds a privileged position within the EU.
Amongst other things, we have a rebate on contributions, meaning that we actually pay significantly less into the EU coffers than we should, given the relative size of our economy and their formulae.
We have, alongside Denmark, an opt-out on membership of the Euro.
And we have, alongside Ireland (because, ironically, they wanted to avoid a land border with Britain), an opt-out on being in the Schengen area.

If we were to apply to rejoin the EU, we certainly wouldn't get a rebate, and we would be legally obliged to join Schengen and the Euro - one of the consequences of the Maastrict treaty (although it must be pointed out that we wouldn't be allowed to join the Euro as it currently stands, because our debt-to-GDP ratio is way too high. So we would be obliged to undertake a further period of austerity in order to get our economy into greater convergence with the EU and then join the Euro).

In other words, the net result of the scenario you imagine is that we had a referendum, pfaffed about how to implement it for three years, left the EU, had an election, petitioned to rejoin the EU and ended up paying more each year to the EU, with less control over our borders and less control over our fiscal policy.

Actually, on second thoughts, the reaction of the likes of Farage, Baker and JRM to that scenario would be so hilarious, that I now want it to happen!


Practically, I think we all know that leaving the EU is not a decision that can be easily reversed.
So like any decision that can't be easily reversed, it's crucial to be certain that it's something that the majority of the people want to do before it's undertaken. Another referendum, or another general election with clearly defined positions, can achieve that.
 

Sir Winston

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My fear is democracy will return a result that doesn't allow a majority for either Remain or Leave, and we are stuck paralysed again...
Exactly, so much for the so called elected parliamentarians who should carry out the vote of the 17.4M
Let’s all be mindful of that the next time some wannabe PM knocks on your door for his or hers vote.
 

SteMerritt

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Exactly, so much for the so called elected parliamentarians who should carry out the vote of the 17.4M
Let’s all be mindful of that the next time some wannabe PM knocks on your door for his or hers vote.
You do realise we had a General Election after the referendum don't you? so 'the 17.4M' helped cause the current impasse.
 

Sir Winston

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You do realise we had a General Election after the referendum don't you? so 'the 17.4M' helped cause the current impasse.
I believe you’ve answered the question yourself. The majority of the (current) elected MP’s constituencies voted to leave. So the hard /soft left wing (if there is such a thing) are treating the 17.4 like mugs. Incidentally, I voted to remain, but given the past 3 1/2 years and the oppositions / remoners and the EUs stance I’ve had enough and let’s get out on the 31st . Rant over and enough 🍷for me tonight 😀

COYY
 

Gary Baldi

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Practically, I think we all know that leaving the EU is not a decision that can be easily reversed.
So like any decision that can't be easily reversed, it's crucial to be certain that it's something that the majority of the people want to do before it's undertaken. Another referendum, or another general election with clearly defined positions, can achieve that.
And therein is the nub of the issue. With 52/48 not being a good enough majority, what is an acceptable majority, and who decides on it? How many votes do we have to find a majority? Who decides on what a vote is? How we adequately educate the Leavers who were "too thick to know what they were voting for last time"? How does Parliament complete that deal? How does that process integrate into out informal constitution? Will Leavers be able to trust the Remain side with all this after the past 3 years of abuse and obfuscation? Would it be another plot to stay in the EU?

And frankly. Will the EU be willing to have the British back in their little club with all the endless drama that we bring? Or will the world be extinct by the time that happens?

With so many unhappy Leavers, it won't be as flippantly easy as some Remainers think it will be. Infact, I can see it being a bigger 💩 show than we have now. As a Leaver, I do not trust Remainers or MPs to act in an honest way, so I can't be the only one thinking 2 from 3, 3 from 5, etc until the right vote is found.

Yuck.
 

Marked Ox

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I believe you’ve answered the question yourself. The majority of the (current) elected MP’s constituencies voted to leave. So the hard /soft left wing (if there is such a thing) are treating the 17.4 like mugs. Incidentally, I voted to remain, but given the past 3 1/2 years and the oppositions / remoners and the EUs stance I’ve had enough and let’s get out on the 31st . Rant over and enough 🍷for me tonight 😀

COYY
You need to blame the right wing as well considering if the ERG/DUP/Johnson etc had voted for May's Deal we'd already be out and negotiating the new relationship.

All 17.4m didn't vote for a No Deal Brexit either, even Johnson and Farage said a deal would happen.
 

tonyw

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And therein is the nub of the issue. With 52/48 not being a good enough majority, what is an acceptable majority, and who decides on it? How many votes do we have to find a majority? Who decides on what a vote is? How we adequately educate the Leavers who were "too thick to know what they were voting for last time"? How does Parliament complete that deal? How does that process integrate into out informal constitution? Will Leavers be able to trust the Remain side with all this after the past 3 years of abuse and obfuscation? Would it be another plot to stay in the EU?

And frankly. Will the EU be willing to have the British back in their little club with all the endless drama that we bring? Or will the world be extinct by the time that happens?
Well, to answer your questions in a random order - I think we've seen enough now to know that a deal with the EU is now vanishingly unlikely.
The type of deal the EU is willing to make, given its self-imposed redlines about the indivisibility of the four freedoms, is not one that seems to be acceptable to either side of the UK debate - we know that because May tried her darnedest to get it passed three times and failed.

So the choice is now much clearer than it was three years ago.
It's stay in the EU (they'll have us back - we're too big an economic contributor to bar) or leave without a deal.
We still don't know exactly what this will mean in terms of economic disruption, but we do know that in the short and medium terms it will mean tariffs and the necessity of some form of Irish border checks (something that was never contemplated three years ago).

How to make that choice? Well, I think it comes down to two possibilities:

My preference - because it is how our democracy is set up to function - is to simply hold a General Election, with clearly delineated positions. Tories, DUP & Brexit Party will take us out with no deal; Lib Dems, Nationalist parties and effectively Labour will not (they're obfuscating and trying to sit on the fence - but it's pretty clear that a vote for Labour is not a vote for leaving the EU any time soon). Whoever gets the majority of MPs enacts that position.

The alternative is you hold a second referendum, with No Deal and Stay in the EU as the two voting options, and pass legislation in advance such that the UK parliament is legally obligated to enact the result.
My worry is because we have very clearly shown that we Brits don't know how to do direct democracy, that we'd find a way to **** up the question or the legislation, and end up pfaffing a whole lot more...….
 

Essexyellows

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How to make that choice? Well, I think it comes down to two possibilities:

My preference - because it is how our democracy is set up to function - is to simply hold a General Election, with clearly delineated positions. Tories, DUP & Brexit Party will take us out with no deal; Lib Dems, Nationalist parties and effectively Labour will not (they're obfuscating and trying to sit on the fence - but it's pretty clear that a vote for Labour is not a vote for leaving the EU any time soon). Whoever gets the majority of MPs enacts that position.

The alternative is you hold a second referendum, with No Deal and Stay in the EU as the two voting options, and pass legislation in advance such that the UK parliament is legally obligated to enact the result.
My worry is because we have very clearly shown that we Brits don't know how to do direct democracy, that we'd find a way to **** up the question or the legislation, and end up pfaffing a whole lot more...….
Another GE was effectively rejected by Parliament on several occasions & nobody wants the "job" until the elephant in the room has been removed.

We had a referendum Leave or Remain....... you can`t have a complex question in a referendum.

We now have what we have after using a Referendum and a General Election already.

If anyone wants reinforcement of the electorates wishes look at the election of MEP`s, which is more reflective because they use a PR system.
 

Sheik djibouti

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What is it that you are failing to understand about the point that nobody was campaigning for a no deal exit?

Therefore the whole concept of EU exit was misleading and was mis-sold prior to the point of purchase.

Humour me for a moment and assume that your vote is a commodity that can be bought and sold....

In any other walk of life, if you are not happy with the purchase you've made, you can take it back and ask for a refund. If that product has been inaccurately described and you have been mislead then the people selling you that product will face criminal sanctions.

Why are you prepared to accept a lesser standard for our precious democracy on a once in a generation decision?

I'm baffled by the ambivalence, unless of course the result suits your objective and therefore by any means fair or foul is OK?

And I am still to hear what the benefits will be of a no deal exit...please can you explain?
 

Marked Ox

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Essexyellows

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What is it that you are failing to understand about the point that nobody was campaigning for a no deal exit?

Therefore the whole concept of EU exit was misleading and was mis-sold prior to the point of purchase.

Humour me for a moment and assume that your vote is a commodity that can be bought and sold....

In any other walk of life, if you are not happy with the purchase you've made, you can take it back and ask for a refund. If that product has been inaccurately described and you have been mislead then the people selling you that product will face criminal sanctions.

Why are you prepared to accept a lesser standard for our precious democracy on a once in a generation decision?

I'm baffled by the ambivalence, unless of course the result suits your objective and therefore by any means fair or foul is OK?

And I am still to hear what the benefits will be of a no deal exit...please can you explain?
I will refer you to the question that we (the electorate) were given. Leave or Remain.
Yes I agree it was too simplistic but it had to be, lowest common denominator and all that.
Even though it seems the Electoral Commission thought they knew which "side" HMG sat and that the result would be a formality.

Everyone had the chance to vote, everyone was given a leaflet, everyone could have used a huge range of resources to aid their decision. Their was misinformation a plenty as well. However it boiled down to folk putting their mark on a ballot paper, they were counted, majority wins. Democracy at its absolute purest.

If folk didn`t vote, couldn`t be bothered, thought the outcome was a given etc etc etc.............. sorry tough. They probably defeated themselves. Ho hum.

Taking your purchase analogy, in 1975 we "bought in" to the EEC (Common Market). Since then, during the warranty period, that has morphed into something far,far larger ........ "inaccurately described and you have been misled"... yep that fits well. We voted to get a refund.

The primary benefit of a "No Deal" is that HMG can get on and do the day job of managing the Country with a higher degree of certainty rather than more endless months of uncertainty and can kicking. Roughly £9 billion staying within the economy might help a bit as well.
 

Gary Baldi

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Well, to answer your questions in a random order - I think we've seen enough now to know that a deal with the EU is now vanishingly unlikely.
The type of deal the EU is willing to make, given its self-imposed redlines about the indivisibility of the four freedoms, is not one that seems to be acceptable to either side of the UK debate - we know that because May tried her darnedest to get it passed three times and failed.

So the choice is now much clearer than it was three years ago.
It's stay in the EU (they'll have us back - we're too big an economic contributor to bar) or leave without a deal.
We still don't know exactly what this will mean in terms of economic disruption, but we do know that in the short and medium terms it will mean tariffs and the necessity of some form of Irish border checks (something that was never contemplated three years ago).

How to make that choice? Well, I think it comes down to two possibilities:

My preference - because it is how our democracy is set up to function - is to simply hold a General Election, with clearly delineated positions. Tories, DUP & Brexit Party will take us out with no deal; Lib Dems, Nationalist parties and effectively Labour will not (they're obfuscating and trying to sit on the fence - but it's pretty clear that a vote for Labour is not a vote for leaving the EU any time soon). Whoever gets the majority of MPs enacts that position.

The alternative is you hold a second referendum, with No Deal and Stay in the EU as the two voting options, and pass legislation in advance such that the UK parliament is legally obligated to enact the result.
My worry is because we have very clearly shown that we Brits don't know how to do direct democracy, that we'd find a way to **** up the question or the legislation, and end up pfaffing a whole lot more...….
The EU have red lines? I was told they didn't have any ;)

Rambling on!

But the main driver is, how can I, as a Leaver, trust any Remainer politicians not keep moving the goal posts to something else if they lose or the election is close and they lost? We've been briefed constantly at how unfair it is to be so close, so we need appropriate thresholds and then default fall back positions. I won't tolerate Remain won, we're done - there has been too much abuse of people and their views for that sit right.

My only fallback position is to respect the original referendum and leave as per the terms of article 50. But Remainers don't want that. Nor do they want a GE until their red lines are met. We're stuck in the now pointless cycle because self interest > national interest. Thus ironically, as I've warned, No Deal becomes the only realistic option to resolve the impasse. And that is sad.

I agree on Direct Democracy. We have Direct Democracy, with after vote caveats. You either do it or you don't.
 

tonyw

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If anyone wants reinforcement of the electorates wishes look at the election of MEP`s, which is more reflective because they use a PR system.
This is the European Election where Brexit Party + Conservatives + UKIP + DUP (i.e. the No Deal supporting parties) won about 45% of the vote, and 47% of the seats?

And Lib Dems + Labour + Greens + Nationalist + Change UK (i.e. the parties that are against No Deal) won about 54% of the vote, and 52% if the seats?

[doesn't add up to 100% because I don't know the Brexit position of the other ~1% of minority parties]


That's the election that we're supposed to view as a reinforcement of the electorate's wishes?
 
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