National News Brexit - the Deal or No Deal poll

[Gary Baldi]

^^^ Who's gonna tell Ol' GB here that UK hasn't actually left yet, ergo we cannot determine whether these "remainer lies" will actually realize yet?

Staggering that people have such strong political opinions whilst missing some absolutely fundamental facts. Which are kinda important *facepalm *

And the same of course applied to Leaver lies to eh? And I did contextualise it in my post:
WW3 doesn't seem pending anytime soon in regards to Brexit.
Nope, still not happened and not on the horizon in the scale they predicted.

There are other too about the deep recession we'd have if voted no - did that happen?

 

[Gary Baldi]

Again, those are predictions, not lies. Over-the-top predictions, but not lies. The leave campaign peddled actual falsehoods. They said things about our relationship with the EU that were demonstrably untrue. Just as Johnson and other journalists peddled lies about the EU for decades, which had poisoned our relationship with the union already.

For the record, I voted remain but wasn't that bothered by the result. Disappointed but not unduly worried. I was naive enough to think that our government would negotiate a sensible withdrawal agreement that took us out of the EU but would retain some kind of access to the single market. Which, incidentally, we were reassured by the likes of Gove, Raab and Hannan we would retain.

Since then, the insistence by first May of ridiculous red lines and the increasingly belligerent attitude of the ERG types has led us towards a no-deal exit which will harm our economy and society. And I was horrified by some of the xenophobic bile that was unleashed in the wake of the result. Not by people on here, I would stress - you all seem perfectly reasonable and I respect you and your opinions.

That's why I've become increasingly pro-remain.

What falsehoods did they peddle? The silly court case against Boris didn't want to get involved in all that and individuals such as yourself continue to assume all Leavers are "thick" and believed all we were told or what you saw on from Leave - when in all honesty, it's not clear and ancedotal at best. Using your terminology, that battle bus predicted we'd save 350 million by leaving the EU, but as it's not happened, it's not a lie.

To point out, we haven't started the trade negotiations yet - so we don't know on access to the single market yet!

 

[Gary Baldi]

You should check what your sources are quoting. Cameron did not imply that at all. What he said was on the lines of that you only have to look at the war graves in Belgium/France to see what has previously happened in a divided Europe and that we should think carefully before introducing divisions. You might disagree but he’s not “implying that brexit will cause WW3”.
The way this was reported in what you quoted is more of a lie than what call-me-Dave said.

The source was on the article - a direct copy and paste for those wouldn't read it and sling insults.

 

[Sarge]

.....

 

[Gary Baldi]

I'm still waiting for a 2nd referendum vote post too. Considering enough on here want one, I'm surprised no one has taken the time to look into it and understand how it would happen, in particular, the Govt decide not to finance it? And how will parliament get a majority for it with a GE? It's been voted down 4 times so far, but still the likes of Campbell peddle it. Or, will the EU extend any time frame for it to happen?

But... It's far easier to whinge about Leave lies, etc etc isn't it?

 

[Gary Baldi]

.....


View attachment 2313

 

[Yellow River]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1187267776861409280

You’ve got to love David Lammy.???
That’s why the Benn bill is known as the surrender act, and Lammy voted for it!
Not the sharpest tool in the box!?

 

[Briggsy]

"Over the top predictions" about something we know nothing about until its done.

But they aren`t "lies".

Lord Hawhaw would be proud.

Aside from that, I would agree that leaving with a deal is a far better option. However you don`t take the "big stick" off the table in a negotiation. Remember the EU said "thats the deal, no changes" until Boris got involved.
It`ll go to the wire, there will be an extension long enough for Parliament to scrutinise the Bill and we`ll leave in an orderly manner, then we`ll have a GE.

I voted to Leave, my resolve is unwavering.

If we're talking about over-the-top predictions, how about "easiest trade deal in history", "the German car industry will come to our rescue", "no one is talking about leaving the single market" etc.

As for lies, of course the £350 million claim was a lie. The slogan was "We send £350 million a week to the EU." We don't. It's a lie. I listed some of the others previously in this thread.

And to Gary Baldi, I don't assume all leavers are thick. Not least because I know leave voters that aren't thick. Of the leavers I know, most genuinely think or thought at the time that we'd be better off. Fair enough. I also know others who accepted we'd suffer economically but it's a price worth paying. Again, fair enough.

I've also met others who clearly knew nothing about the issues and just repeated leave buzzwords like sovereignty and immigration, unaware that we have always been as sovereign as is likely in today's world and that immigration is a net benefit.

For those reasons, I've always tried to keep any discussion about Brexit I engage in on here civil and respectful, and also because insulting people about it would be completely counter-productive.

 

[Essexyellows]

So if I say I think oxford are going to win the league and they don’t, am I a liar (and a traitorous propagandist according to you)?

As earlier there are certain socioeconomic factors and the individuals core beliefs in the "mix".................... we are winning the quadruple!!!

Every season I place a pre-season bet on us winning whichever League we are in, the League cup & the FA Cup............................. it doesn`t pay out much!!

We all have different views on different things, its just some of them converge!

 

[IsleofWightYellow]

For one, not every leave voter read any if at all stuff from Vote Leave or their cohorts. But regardless of that, they are convenient straw man for bitter Remainers who still cannot accept we voted to leave. Where did Vote Leave break law the other than on spending rules?

So this didn't happen on the Remain? Some amazing whoppers here that even Burger King are interested - this is from 2016.

Leave Lies? Remainers Need To Look In The Mirror

Recently, European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker, blamed the Brexit vote on 40 years of lies and the lies of 'Leave' campaigners. Juncker is correct in one sense, there were many lies during the EU Referendum campaign, however these lies were from the 'Remain' side. The so-called lies...

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

"David Cameron implied in a speech about the "serried rows of white headstones" that World War 3 would be upon us if Brexit occurred. The last time I checked the UK had not invaded Poland or any other country, and therefore we must conclude this was a lie. " WW3 doesn't seem pending anytime soon in regards to Brexit.

"3 million people in the UK will lose their jobs was the fictitious figure banded about. However, in July the claimant count fell by 8,600 to 763,600, despite an expected rise of 9,500. Another lie." Nope, still not happened and not on the horizon in the scale they predicted.

But Remainers never lied did they? ?

David Cameron (who I disagree with on many things) said, and I quote:

"Whenever we turn our back on Europe, sooner or later we come to regret it... we have always had to go back in, and always at much higher cost. The serried rows of white headstones in lovingly-tended Commonwealth war cemeteries stand as silent testament to the price this country has paid to help restore peace and order in Europe. Can we be so sure that peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking? I would never be so rash as to make that assumption."

And you're seriously saying because we are not currently at war (which he didn't predict) even though we haven't actually left yet anyway- That's a 'lie' in your book? Really?

He wasn't saying 'As soon as Brexit happens WW3 WILL happen straight after' - and I think that you know he wasn't. He was making a wider point about the UK being part of a united Europe to help keep the peace, and have more stability as a larger block of countries. Which you can agree with or not, but to say that remainers lied (yes, maybe they did in other cases) because of that speech by David Cameron not leading to actual WW3 (again, before we've even left yet) is frankly ridiculous.

This is the problem with Brexit - probably on both sides, but I see it more from Brexiteers to be honest - people don't look at facts or truths, they twist whatever they can to try and get support for their unwavering, unswerving, unquestionable belief, faith even. It's more like a religion than a political view.

 

[chuckbert]

The source was on the article - a direct copy and paste for those wouldn't read it and sling insults.

The "source" you used was a huffington post article which included one single quote from the original speech "serried rows of white headstones" and span into a strawman to knock down. Try googling "cameron serried" and read some of the other articles from all media outlets at the time. They don't accuse Cameron of lying. Some of them accuse him of saying that brexit would lead to war, but not one of them substantiates that with a quote from Cameron.

 

[Sarge]

now the agenda of some hardliners becomes clearer .....

Jacob Rees-Mogg is in line for a huge personal windfall when Britain exits the single market

The political motives for an exit from the single market were laid bare today after it was revealed that a prominent Brexiteer is also a major shareholder

www.thelondoneconomic.com

 

[Sarge]

now the agenda of some hardliners becomes clearer .....

Jacob Rees-Mogg is in line for a huge personal windfall when Britain exits the single market

The political motives for an exit from the single market were laid bare today after it was revealed that a prominent Brexiteer is also a major shareholder

www.thelondoneconomic.com

and another ....

Britain's richest man - and Brexit supporter - is moving to Monaco

Billionaire said Britain would be 'perfectly successful' outside of the EU, but is now opting to leave

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Essexyellows]

now the agenda of some hardliners becomes clearer .....

Jacob Rees-Mogg is in line for a huge personal windfall when Britain exits the single market

The political motives for an exit from the single market were laid bare today after it was revealed that a prominent Brexiteer is also a major shareholder

www.thelondoneconomic.com

Politics of envy..... the rich get rich and the rest of us just bumble along. No pockets in shrouds.

 

[chuckbert]

Politics of envy..... the rich get rich and the rest of us just bumble along. No pockets in shrouds.

Blimey, I really hope you're some cynical rich dude who's trying to downplay the greed of others to hide your own. If not, you are being taken for a massive ride by them mate. The "politics of envy" concept is an absolute classic ploy to keep the plebs down where they belong.

[It makes me think of one of the verses from the hymn "All things bright and beautiful" (yeah, I used to be a choirboy): "The rich man in his castle, the poor man at the gate; Each was made according to his own estate."]. We haven't moved on that far, have we?

 

[radicalox]

now the agenda of some hardliners becomes clearer .....

Jacob Rees-Mogg is in line for a huge personal windfall when Britain exits the single market

The political motives for an exit from the single market were laid bare today after it was revealed that a prominent Brexiteer is also a major shareholder

www.thelondoneconomic.com

now the agenda of some hardliners becomes clearer .....

Jacob Rees-Mogg is in line for a huge personal windfall when Britain exits the single market

The political motives for an exit from the single market were laid bare today after it was revealed that a prominent Brexiteer is also a major shareholder

www.thelondoneconomic.com

Feels like they are trying to make something out of nothing here...I'd imagine as a wealthy man Mogg has many investments - Some would be negatively effected by Brexit. The author is just to trying to find a case of a (tentative) advantage to create a perceived agenda.

 

[tonyw]

I'm still waiting for a 2nd referendum vote post too. Considering enough on here want one, I'm surprised no one has taken the time to look into it and understand how it would happen, in particular, the Govt decide not to finance it? And how will parliament get a majority for it with a GE? It's been voted down 4 times so far, but still the likes of Campbell peddle it. Or, will the EU extend any time frame for it to happen?

But... It's far easier to whinge about Leave lies, etc etc isn't it?

I've been on record on here about 1000 times as saying I think referendums are a bad idea in Britain, because that's not how our democracy has been set up, and as a result we're terrible at them.....

…..but as for how you would have a referendum at this stage, I think there's a simple mechanism.
First the EU grants Britain a three month extension (which seems likely, unless Macron gets his way)
Then the Withdrawal bill goes back to parliament for a debate, but the MPs vote to tack on an amendment that requires it to first be approved by a national referendum before passing into law. If you believe some of the things Corbyn is saying, then Labour would likely back a bill with this amendment, so there's a high chance it could pass (both the amendment itself, and the amended bill)
Then you hold that confirmatory referendum some time before January.

The only reason this wouldn't happen is because BoJo is opposed (what's he afraid of?) so the Tories would likely kill the amended bill before it could be voted on. Meaning we would likely have to have a General Election first, before this course of action could proceed......
…..and if BoJo then won a parliamentary majority, it would render the whole discussion moot.

Ignoring the 'referendums are bad' argument for a second, such a confirmatory referendum would seem like a very rational course of action.
In 2016, people were asked to vote on whether or not to leave the EU without a detailed understanding of what Brexit actually meant (and if anyone wants to argue with that statement - show me one single article during the entire Brexit campaign, even from the Remain side, that stated that post-Brexit, goods would be subject to a customs check upon crossing the Irish Sea!)

Now, in 2019, we know what Brexit is going to look like - it's BoJo's deal. So what's the harm in going back to the people and saying "OK, now we now what Brexit actually means - at least in the short term - are you sure that's what you want?"
If the people say "Yes, that's what we want" then the bill gets passed and Brexit happens.
If the people say "Hell no, that's not what we were voting for" then the bill fails, and we're back in Brexit purgatory - but at least we haven't made a major, irreversible decision that the majority of the population don't want.

 

[Sarge]

I've been on record on here about 1000 times as saying I think referendums are a bad idea in Britain, because that's not how our democracy has been set up, and as a result we're terrible at them.....

…..but as for how you would have a referendum at this stage, I think there's a simple mechanism.
First the EU grants Britain a three month extension (which seems likely, unless Macron gets his way)
Then the Withdrawal bill goes back to parliament for a debate, but the MPs vote to tack on an amendment that requires it to first be approved by a national referendum before passing into law. If you believe some of the things Corbyn is saying, then Labour would likely back a bill with this amendment, so there's a high chance it could pass (both the amendment itself, and the amended bill)
Then you hold that confirmatory referendum some time before January.

The only reason this wouldn't happen is because BoJo is opposed (what's he afraid of?) so the Tories would likely kill the amended bill before it could be voted on. Meaning we would likely have to have a General Election first, before this course of action could proceed......
…..and if BoJo then won a parliamentary majority, it would render the whole discussion moot.

Ignoring the 'referendums are bad' argument for a second, such a confirmatory referendum would seem like a very rational course of action.
In 2016, people were asked to vote on whether or not to leave the EU without a detailed understanding of what Brexit actually meant (and if anyone wants to argue with that statement - show me one single article during the entire Brexit campaign, even from the Remain side, that stated that post-Brexit, goods would be subject to a customs check upon crossing the Irish Sea!)

Now, in 2019, we know what Brexit is going to look like - it's BoJo's deal. So what's the harm in going back to the people and saying "OK, now we now what Brexit actually means - at least in the short term - are you sure that's what you want?"
If the people say "Yes, that's what we want" then the bill gets passed and Brexit happens.
If the people say "Hell no, that's not what we were voting for" then the bill fails, and we're back in Brexit purgatory - but at least we haven't made a major, irreversible decision that the majority of the population don't want.

12th Dec 'early' Gen election being suggested as part of the horse trading .... will it or wont it happen?

Boris Johnson calls for MPs to back general election on 12 December

Prime minister offers MPs more time to debate Brexit deal in return for passing motion for early election

www.independent.co.uk

 

[tonyw]

12th Dec 'early' Gen election being suggested as part of the horse trading .... will it or wont it happen?

Eh, I had posted this on the other thread, but it probably fits better here.....

Good - it's overdue.

Almost impossible to see how Corbyn and Labour could refuse this now.
Assuming that the EU do grant the extension (and they should know before Monday, when they're supposed to vote on the GE), then No Deal Brexit is now off-the-table, because a BoJo-led parliament would do his deal, so that is no longer an excuse to duck an election.
"Our polling is terrible, and we fear we're going to get decimated" is not an argument that's going to generate a lot of sympathy. You can't put party over country at a time when our parliament is clearly and unambiguously dysfunctional.

If it happens, the big wild card then becomes Farage.
He hates the deal - but does he hate it enough to campaign widely and loudly against it? And if he does, can he convince enough voters that "it's not Brexit" so that the Brexit Party becomes a significant force?
If he does, then with the Lib Dems likely to make gains in Remain areas, a BoJo majority will not be guaranteed.

 

[Yellow River]

Eh, I had posted this on the other thread, but it probably fits better here.....

Good - it's overdue.

Almost impossible to see how Corbyn and Labour could refuse this now.
Assuming that the EU do grant the extension (and they should know before Monday, when they're supposed to vote on the GE), then No Deal Brexit is now off-the-table, because a BoJo-led parliament would do his deal, so that is no longer an excuse to duck an election.
"Our polling is terrible, and we fear we're going to get decimated" is not an argument that's going to generate a lot of sympathy. You can't put party over country at a time when our parliament is clearly and unambiguously dysfunctional.

If it happens, the big wild card then becomes Farage.
He hates the deal - but does he hate it enough to campaign widely and loudly against it? And if he does, can he convince enough voters that "it's not Brexit" so that the Brexit Party becomes a significant force?
If he does, then with the Lib Dems likely to make gains in Remain areas, a BoJo majority will not be guaranteed.

Who knows with Corbyn, McDonald, & Abbott. The latest polls don’t make happy reading for Labour.
However to run away from a GE now that a no deal is off the table would not be a good look!