General VAR - time to scrap it?

[horseman]

Surely the point is that if the official did not see the incident as hand ball either way (which he didn't ) then the game continues

In the Arsenal game the lino made the call as it saw it and without tv and or VAR everyone would of just got on with the game as was the case before the surrounding of officials was "allowed" to go unpunished.

all they are now doing is complicating and spoiling the game for everyone in search of an alleged perfection which will never exist where so many things are subjective.

the one thing fans had was the spontaneous celebration as the ball hit the net, they are now doing their best to remove that and will turn the game into a pantomime or circus.

 

[Oufcrealist]

As it is VAR is awful. The offside rule needs to be redefined. Something like a whole leg or a whole head in front. Not miniscule bits!!

 

[Didcotox]

As it is VAR is awful. The offside rule needs to be redefined. Something like a whole leg or a whole head in front. Not miniscule bits!!

In fairness to VAR, they appear to be getting the offside calls right. There is no point changing the rule, it is a simple rule as is so why complicate it?
The issue is the time it takes to review the fine margins. As someone has suggested, in such cases why not go with the on field decision?

 

[Marked Ox]

In fairness to VAR, they appear to be getting the offside calls right. There is no point changing the rule, it is a simple rule as is so why complicate it?
The issue is the time it takes to review the fine margins. As someone has suggested, in such cases why not go with the on field decision?

I seen plenty of offsides that could be very wrong based on the margin of error, as somebody else said the frame rate isn't sufficient to get the required accuracy. So in effect there is an element of guesswork in where the 'lines' are positioned.

 

[Oxymoron]

At the moment, offside is being given if any part of a player is beyond the last defender. If offside was redefined such that ALL of the attacking player had to be beyond the defender (clear daylight in old parlance) it allows for the player that is "level" to be deemed onside which is better for the game and easier to judge, VAR or no VAR

 

[Matty Greens Left Boot]

I think the highly paid players can catch a player offside by mm is progress because it is still offside, likewise a goal that is mm over the line is a goal. where it doesn't work is for interpretations i.e player leaves his leg in for the penalty slight brush and player goes down hand ball (I would much rather go to a cricket type situation where intent doesn't matter you can't claim accidental LBW). I also think players should be able to challenge like have two referals a game like cricket. VAR is there because time after time fans have critisized and abused referees who make the vast majority of correct calls. at least with var the law is correctly applied where it is open to interpretation.

 

[Marked Ox]

I think the highly paid players can catch a player offside by mm is progress because it is still offside, likewise a goal that is mm over the line is a goal. where it doesn't work is for interpretations i.e player leaves his leg in for the penalty slight brush and player goes down hand ball (I would much rather go to a cricket type situation where intent doesn't matter you can't claim accidental LBW). I also think players should be able to challenge like have two referals a game like cricket. VAR is there because time after time fans have critisized and abused referees who make the vast majority of correct calls. at least with var the law is correctly applied where it is open to interpretation.

I refer you to my previous post on offside, wherethe accuracy of the technology used to place the line is not accurate enough. Therefore, just because the line says it is offside doesn't mean it is offside as the placing of the line is still an interpretation. So those cms offside could actually be cms or more onside, or even more offside.

 

[Sarge]

Football supporters association on VAR .....

 

[Left Wing Cross]

If anything, it highlights that the rules of the game need some work (especially offside and handball).

Offside has been tinkered with for years (and changed almost every year).

Second phase. Not interfering. From daylight between attacker and defender to no part of the attacker should be ahead of the defender. The list goes on...

 

[ZeroTheHero]

The problem is now that the genie is out of the bottle, getting any part of it back in is going to be nigh on impossible.

I was thinking that they have to apply the 'clear and obvious mistake' to the offsides as well - but even then, how far offside constitutes that? Lundstrum's was maybe half an inch and took too long to decide - I think that's obvious. But is 6 inches offside an obvious mistake? 3 inches? Whatever arbitrary definition/amount is chosen, someone will always be just a bit more or a bit less than that off.

Should VAR refs have to make a decision within 30 seconds or the on-field decision stands? But in that case, surely the whole point of this farrago is that the decisions have to be 'correct' - hurrying the officials will lead to mistakes and then we are back to worse than where we started: still getting bad decisions but with an extra layer of doubt. I do however agree that they have to be quicker!

I still despair of the new handball rule - some of which seems to apply in the penalty area but nowhere else. It is not 'natural' to be playing football with your arms by your sides ('within the natural silhouette' I think they say all the time), especially when jumping, sliding along the ground to tackle etc. It's also unreasonable to expect players to move their arms out of the way when the ball is blasted at them from close range. There have been a couple of incidents where a penalty has been given because the players arm moved towards the ball in such situations, but the trouble is that the players arm was actually moving back towards his side - so it was more than possible he was trying to move his hand OUT of the way of the ball! And VAR (with it's endless slow-motion replays from every angle) makes any inadvertent touch look like the hand of god.

 

[Gary Baldi]

The NFL have a system where one person makes the ultimate call on reviews, which in theory makes it all more consistent. It rather assumes that the person knows what they are doing, but generally, the offsides and handballs would be dealt with in the same way.

 

[unification]

If VAR is benefiting Liverpool, it must be scrapped.

 

[RyanioBirdio]

It’s never getting scrapped. Pandora’s box is well and truly opened. This is what most football fans wanted for years.

 

[Sarge]

It’s never getting scrapped. Pandora’s box is well and truly opened. This is what most football fans wanted for years.

seems to work extremely well for LiVARpool

 

[OUFCGav]

They need to fix it though. Fans didn't want to be waiting for 2 minutes with no clue about what is going on. No-one cares if half an armpit is in advance of a toe either. They made a big thing in England about 'clear and obvious' but the sort of minutae being punished is anything but.
The authorities need to remember the fans that pay to go to games.

 

[Left Wing Cross]

VAR = Two opportunities for the referees to make a poor decision

 

[RyanioBirdio]

They need to fix it though. Fans didn't want to be waiting for 2 minutes with no clue about what is going on. No-one cares if half an armpit is in advance of a toe either. They made a big thing in England about 'clear and obvious' but the sort of minutae being punished is anything but.
The authorities need to remember the fans that pay to go to games.

You can’t start moving the goalposts because the reality doesn’t fit the fantasy. If a part of a player’s body that they can score with is offside, it’s offside, and if it takes them ages to figure that out but it’s the right call, then it’s correct. That is what people wanted. People didn’t want subjectivity, they didn’t want borderline decisions going the wrong way - they wanted cold, hard facts and the factually right outcome to prevail. If people wanted that, and the overwhelming majority said that they did, this is what they’re getting.

We had a free flowing, fast paced sport as it was and people wanted a factually accurate one instead, because an offside here or a trip there in real time going the ‘wrong’ way made everyone angry and call for something to be done. People can’t have it both ways. If they didn’t want this they shouldn’t have waged war on the officials for years while the media joined in and stoked it into a frenzy.

 

[SteMerritt]

You can’t start moving the goalposts because the reality doesn’t fit the fantasy. If a part of a player’s body that they can score with is offside, it’s offside, and if it takes them ages to figure that out but it’s the right call, then it’s correct. That is what people wanted. People didn’t want subjectivity, they didn’t want borderline decisions going the wrong way - they wanted cold, hard facts and the factually right outcome to prevail. If people wanted that, and the overwhelming majority said that they did, this is what they’re getting.

We had a free flowing, fast paced sport as it was and people wanted a factually accurate one instead, because an offside here or a trip there in real time going the ‘wrong’ way made everyone angry and call for something to be done. People can’t have it both ways. If they didn’t want this they shouldn’t have waged war on the officials for years while the media joined in and stoked it into a frenzy.

You keep saying 'people', I don't know any fans who wanted it. TV companies and armchair casuals (not in that sense...) maybe, but not fans. But as you said, the genie is out of the bottle now so refinement is the only answer.

 

[tonyw]

So watched a rare Premier League game today - Man City/Chelsea.

In the 90th minute, Man City had a goal chalked off for offside.
Watching the replays, I think every fan would say Stirling was clearly onside. But then they put the lines on the screen, and apparently the tip of his shoulder was an inch ahead of the last defender.

It was completely absurd, and the only good thing is that it didn't affect the result.

If they're going to keep VAR, then they need to follow cricket and have an 'Umpire's Call' equivalent for tight decisions like that.
Football does not need decisions to be perfect - they (and even this is arguable) just need to eliminate the bad refereeing mistakes.
VAR is going way above and beyond what is needed.

 

[SteMerritt]

If they're going to keep VAR, then they need to follow cricket and have an 'Umpire's Call' equivalent for tight decisions like that.

I believe FIFA have ruled that out as an option

 

[OUFCGav]

You can’t start moving the goalposts because the reality doesn’t fit the fantasy. If a part of a player’s body that they can score with is offside, it’s offside, and if it takes them ages to figure that out but it’s the right call, then it’s correct. That is what people wanted. People didn’t want subjectivity, they didn’t want borderline decisions going the wrong way - they wanted cold, hard facts and the factually right outcome to prevail. If people wanted that, and the overwhelming majority said that they did, this is what they’re getting.

We had a free flowing, fast paced sport as it was and people wanted a factually accurate one instead, because an offside here or a trip there in real time going the ‘wrong’ way made everyone angry and call for something to be done. People can’t have it both ways. If they didn’t want this they shouldn’t have waged war on the officials for years while the media joined in and stoked it into a frenzy.

The clamour came from the media who know that controversy sells even if it is manufactured, and the people that bought it were the armchair fans. People who go to games don't want it.

 

[Didcotox]

So watched a rare Premier League game today - Man City/Chelsea.

In the 90th minute, Man City had a goal chalked off for offside.
Watching the replays, I think every fan would say Stirling was clearly onside. But then they put the lines on the screen, and apparently the tip of his shoulder was an inch ahead of the last defender.

It was completely absurd, and the only good thing is that it didn't affect the result.

If they're going to keep VAR, then they need to follow cricket and have an 'Umpire's Call' equivalent for tight decisions like that.
Football does not need decisions to be perfect - they (and even this is arguable) just need to eliminate the bad refereeing mistakes.
VAR is going way above and beyond what is needed.

I thought it was clearly offside personally. Think VAR has got the offside rule right imo. Couple of tight calls that have taken too long to work out but apart from that it’s been good.
It’s the other decisions which baffle me with regards VAR.
TV companies and arm chair fans are very much to blame, with very decision spoken about endlessly by MOTD, SSN and Talk sport etc we only have ourselves to blame. Maybe we can go back to the days of the referees decision is final and we move on.

 

[OUFCGav]

So watched a rare Premier League game today - Man City/Chelsea.

In the 90th minute, Man City had a goal chalked off for offside.
Watching the replays, I think every fan would say Stirling was clearly onside. But then they put the lines on the screen, and apparently the tip of his shoulder was an inch ahead of the last defender.

It was completely absurd, and the only good thing is that it didn't affect the result.

If they're going to keep VAR, then they need to follow cricket and have an 'Umpire's Call' equivalent for tight decisions like that.
Football does not need decisions to be perfect - they (and even this is arguable) just need to eliminate the bad refereeing mistakes.
VAR is going way above and beyond what is needed.

The issue with decisions like that is which frame do they choose. On which of the 30 frames do they decide the ball is "played"?

 

[Essexyellows]

The issue with decisions like that is which frame do they choose. On which of the 30 frames do they decide the ball is "played"?

There in lies the problem.
Is played as the foot hits the ball or as the ball leaves the foot?

Its complete ball-cocks as a system that will destroy everything we love about the game. Imagine your team score a dramatic winner in an end of season game, in the 94th minute......crowd go mental............ then 3 minutes later its ruled out because someones toe was offside.

If their body is level then give attackers the advantage.........

#novar

 

[Victor1986]

Completely agree Essex - "goal line" stuff certainly but only off-side when it is clearly so & always give the attacking side benefit of doubt.

 

[Left Wing Cross]

Completely agree Essex - "goal line" stuff certainly but only off-side when it is clearly so & always give the attacking side benefit of doubt.

That's the current rules problem, not VAR. Offside is a farce and the whole "handball-only-when-a-goal-is-scored" is a nonsense.

The rules of the game clearly need to be reviewed if VAR is going to be implemented effectively.

 

[Steve Gilbert]

That's the current rules problem, not VAR. Offside is a farce and the whole "handball-only-when-a-goal-is-scored" is a nonsense.

The rules of the game clearly need to be reviewed if VAR is going to be implemented effectively.

Exactly this. They made too made rule changes during the summer and then brought VAR in along side the rule changes. They should of made the rule changes and then brought VAR in next season once everyone had got used to the new rules.

The rule regarding handball in the box now favours the defending team where it always used to favour the attacking team to create more goals/drama. If an attacker handballs in the box and leads to a goal, the goal is chalked off. If the defender handballs in the box but no goal is scored. Play continues and no penalty is awarded. How is that fair?!

It is clear that officials weren't ready for VAR or had enough training on it. Overall, it has been one big mess.

 

[Marked Ox]

Exactly this. They made too made rule changes during the summer and then brought VAR in along side the rule changes. They should of made the rule changes and then brought VAR in next season once everyone had got used to the new rules.

The rule regarding handball in the box now favours the defending team where it always used to favour the attacking team to create more goals/drama. If an attacker handballs in the box and leads to a goal, the goal is chalked off. If the defender handballs in the box but no goal is scored. Play continues and no penalty is awarded. How is that fair?!

It is clear that officials weren't ready for VAR or had enough training on it. Overall, it has been one big mess.

On the defender/attacker and handball that is only for accidental handballs, deliberate handballs for a forward is obviously still given but also for defenders as well. Also, the unnatural hand/arm position is a bit of a joke which can be difficult for defenders as it can still effectively be an accidental handball as their arms move naturally as they jump/slid etc but it is still given as a penalty.

One thing that if VAR continues is to ban slow motion replays for decisions on tackles/handballs as they pretty much make most things look worse. Any replay should be made using the speed it actually happened at.

 

[Thomas/Brock/Jones]

Real v PSG ....red card ? Penalty/ yellow card .... no innocuous free kick on halfway line ...after a few mins of messing about...just crap