General VAR consistency?

[Oldman159]

Is it?

Having difficulty in seeing why McGuires double kick on a chelski bloke last night was not a red like Sonny’s was a while back.

Then I realised McGuire plays for Manure.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

Frank Lampard's Chelsea was done like a kipper last night. Maguire should have been sent off and the first Chelsea goal should have stood (as the Chelsea player was pushed into the bloke he supposedly fouled). The second was 'offside' as per the way VAR is being used - consistent, but a bit stupid. That is two decisions that were inconsistent and/or wrong that changed the game - so where is the advantage of VAR errors over normal reffing errors?

 

[Essexyellows]

Frank Lampard's Chelsea was done like a kipper last night. Maguire should have been sent off and the first Chelsea goal should have stood (as the Chelsea player was pushed into the bloke he supposedly fouled). The second was 'offside' as per the way VAR is being used - consistent, but a bit stupid. That is two decisions that were inconsistent and/or wrong that changed the game - so where is the advantage of VAR errors over normal reffing errors?

Exactly.............. bin it.

 

[Left Wing Cross]

Exactly.............. bin it.

The genie is out of the bottle, there is no way back (especially with all the money that has been spent on it).

It needs to be better implemented because at the moment it creates more problems than it solves.

Edit: Also, the VAR assessor seems even less accountable for their decisions than the onfield ref! That's crazy!

 

[RyanioBirdio]

The genie is out of the bottle, there is no way back (especially with all the money that has been spent on it).

Bingo.

As I’ve said a hundred times - this is what people wanted. Every marginal decision and every slight mistake was magnified to death by the media and in turn massacred by the ‘fans’ for years. If it was scrapped is that going to stop? Will the media wind their necks in and will the fans agree to disagree? Not a chance. It’s here to stay, and that’s what the majority of people wanted. The grass isn’t always greener.

Football is by its very nature an imperfect sport, but if the authorities deem that VAR makes things even 1% more accurate, there is absolutely no chance of them binning it.

If we think it’s bad now, wait until it’s brought in at all levels of the professional game inside the next five years or so.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

It is what SOME people wanted. Personally I'd have preferred them to have spent the money on training, development and fitness programmes for referees. But it makes 'great TV' and that, rather than the experience of the supporters who get off their ar$es and go and actually watch their teams, is apparently what is important. So it is here to stay unfortunately. The idea of it dripping down to EFL levels fills me with horror. It will be done with one camera linked to Darren Deadman in a portakabin in Runcorn.

 

[RyanioBirdio]

It is what SOME people wanted.

I know far more people who spent years sloshing their pints around and banging on about how it needed sorting out, compared to those who accepted it was just part of the game. Unfortunately there are infinitely more armchair PL fans than there are the rest of us ‘regular football’ fans, and as a result more people wanted it than those who didn’t. The PL ‘Big Six’ probably account for 70% of all football fans in this country alone, and most of them howled until they were red in the face for changes every time a decision went against them.

We may not have wanted it at our level, but we’re not the majority.

 

[Left Wing Cross]

Unfortunately there are infinitely more armchair PL fans than there are the rest of us ‘regular football’ fans, and as a result more people wanted it than those who didn’t.

How much does VAR affect the experience of the armchair fan? Is it just like watching a replay after a goal to them? Is it less of an impact to those in the stands?

 

[Gary Baldi]

Should a lower league fan be surprised that the Refs who make it up as they go along at our level, are now doing the same thing as VAR refs?

But until PGMOL have a root and branch reform, this stuff will happen again and again

 

[Oldman159]

All I ever wanted was unbiased and consistently even handed referees at the Kashstad.

Don’t suppose I’ll get that either.

 

[Morris Oxford]

I don’t believe most people wanted it let alone most fans, I certainly didn’t.

With marginal refereeing decisions you take the rough with the smooth, its always been part and parcel of what football is all about. A fast free flowing game. We’re not stop start snooze fest rugby and I for one don’t ever want us to be.

VAR is sucking the life and soul out of attending a live football match, that euphoric high when your team scores a goal and the despair when you concede in the last minute. I don’t want that to change.

VAR is for TV companies, presenters, pundits and armchair fans and that’s why sadly in my opinion it’s here to stay, they may have wanted it but this fan certainly didn’t.

 

[Village-Yellow]

Spoiling the game.

Stupidly, I assumed the advantage of VAR would mean all decisions would be correct.. clearly not in the McGuire incident. Cannot believe that it was not red carded.

Should have stopped at goal line technology.

 

[dickwalton1964]

VAR got all three right in my opinion. Giroud was clearly offside, no issue. The foul on Williams was a blatant double handed push in that back, as clear a shove as you will ever see. Yes, Fred lent into him but if that’s called a foul then goodbye football. Watch ANY match ANYWHERE and you will see twenty plus instances a game where’s there’s a bit of pushing and shoving at a dead ball situation. Perhaps Fred was more sly but others should take note, that’s clever in not making it so blatantly obvious as the Chelsea player.

Maguire was basically handbags. His leg was extended to support the falling Chelsea player, there was no excessive force at all other than a very slight bending of the leg but no forceful follow through.

Chelsea have no identity, no obvious tactics and are boring to watch. Lampard failed miserably in this window and I’m not surprised players were reluctant to join a bland, uncharacteristic manager. Does he have a personality ? Solskjaer had done him 8-1 on aggregate this season in three matches, with two games at The Bridge. Man Utd were comfortably the better team last night.

Coincidence ? Only Lampard and the London media would have you believe that.

 

[Essexyellows]

The game is too "quick" and "in the moment" for VAR.
Wolves v Leicester................. player scores, crowd go mental........ ruled out because somebody`s heel was offside!
I mean WTF, if that is how the game goes then it`s goodnight to any excitement, debate or fun.
Might as well not cheer when the player scores, then politely applaud when the goal is eventually awarded.
#amf

 

[tonyw]

I've said it before, but although I would rather VAR didn't exist - there is a right way and a wrong way to do it.

We actually saw the right way during the 2018 World Cup.
The VAR assessor in a back room somewhere took a quick look at every major decision. Where they could, if it was marginal - they let it go. If it was questionable, they flagged it and the ref took a look.

In 62 games, there were 440 occasions where VAR reviewed decisions - but they were all quick, and didn't hold up the game significantly.
Only 19 decisions were flagged for the ref to take a second look; the ref then changed 16 of those.
In other words, less than a third of the matches were affected at all by VAR......and those that were, for the most part it was to correct a clearly wrong decision.

The wrong way to do it is the 2019-20 Premier League season. Multiple VAR pauses every game. Lack of consistency in decisions. Creating more controversy than it saves.


To take offside as an example - if offside is suspected, what the assessor should do is take a quick look (no more than 10 seconds) at a freeze frame of the incident.
If they can't tell within those 10 seconds that the decision was clearly wrong, then they should immediately stick with the decision that the officials made on the pitch (i.e. the World Cup model).
What they shouldn't do is spend the next two minutes drawing lines on the screen, to verify if a player's toenail was 5mm in front of the defender. That's both tedious, and trying to apply precision and exactness to a game that is neither precise nor exact. And it's killing football. I pray it never reaches League One.

 

[Village-Yellow]

Yup... The “Clear and Obvious” rule is clearly and obviously not being used in these petty offside decisions.

 

[Left Wing Cross]

VAR: Arsene Wenger suggests offside law could 'change a little bit'

Former Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger says "maybe there is room to the change the offside rule a little bit" in the wake of repeated VAR controversy.

www.bbc.co.uk

Sensible?

 

[Matty Greens Left Boot]

Football refereeing in this country is actually very good unfortunately the fans, managers and players aren't that bright enough to understand the laws (note the number on this thread who call them rules they are explicitly laws the ruddy book is called the "LAWS of the Game"). unfortunately now virtually every decision is now correct under an interpretation of the law. people may not like the interpretation but they are correct in law these decisions. Like every decision I as a qualified referee could give it one way a VAR ref might go the other both could be correct under the interpretation of the law. Unfortunately fans players and pundits brought this on themselves by bashing referees (who often refereed at a higher standard than the players play at (especially league 1)) now they have to put the decision through video so some muppet that has never refereed professionally knows they don't have to bother opening their mouth (except they still do). So far every VAR decision i have seen is correct in Law.

 

[Gary Baldi]

Interpretation is where I think fans, managers and players have an issue - our last 2 home games highlight how rules are interpreted differently on a game by game basis.

 

[Briggsy]

Football refereeing in this country is actually very good unfortunately the fans, managers and players aren't that bright enough to understand the laws (note the number on this thread who call them rules they are explicitly laws the ruddy book is called the "LAWS of the Game"). unfortunately now virtually every decision is now correct under an interpretation of the law. people may not like the interpretation but they are correct in law these decisions. Like every decision I as a qualified referee could give it one way a VAR ref might go the other both could be correct under the interpretation of the law. Unfortunately fans players and pundits brought this on themselves by bashing referees (who often refereed at a higher standard than the players play at (especially league 1)) now they have to put the decision through video so some muppet that has never refereed professionally knows they don't have to bother opening their mouth (except they still do). So far every VAR decision i have seen is correct in Law.

I don't think many people are complaining that VAR is getting offside decisions wrong. They are complaining about the law and the rigidity of the VAR rulings. There has to be some margin for error, similar to the umpire's call in cricket. If a decision is too close to be seen live by the assistant referee, then his/her decision should stand.

The whole law needs reviewing any way, in my opinion. It's become far too complicated in practice. The Wolves decision last week was a prime example.

 

[Left Wing Cross]

I don't think many people are complaining that VAR is getting offside decisions wrong. They are complaining about the law and the rigidity of the VAR rulings. There has to be some margin for error, similar to the umpire's call in cricket. If a decision is too close to be seen live by the assistant referee, then his/her decision should stand.

The whole law needs reviewing any way, in my opinion. It's become far too complicated in practice. The Wolves decision last week was a prime example.

The laws of the game are not built for VAR. There needs to be changes to make it workable. However, will this create a two-tier system as VAR based laws are attempted to be applied to the rest of the non-VAR world?

 

[Briggsy]

The laws of the game are not built for VAR. There needs to be changes to make it workable. However, will this create a two-tier system as VAR based laws are attempted to be applied to the rest of the non-VAR world?

Also a good point.

 

[Briggsy]

I guess you'd have to bring in an amendment that says that the official's decision is final, unless VAR is in operation, in which case... blah, blah.

 

[Essexyellows]

As I posted on another VAR thread......

"The game is too pacy for VAR. It destroys the flow and excitement.
VAR fits in well with Rugby and works really well with a miked up referee who explains what hes reviewing and why. Having said that the referees in rugby are of a far higher standard than football and the pace of the game is different.
Also works well in cricket, again its an "overall" pace of the game that lends itself to cricket well and the technology works.

A toenail offside at 50 frames a second or whatever doesn`t work.....and then it takes 3 or 4 minutes to review.

Maybe give the team captains limited reviews per match? "

Or, best idea, improve the training and support given to referee`s?

 

[Matty Greens Left Boot]

Or, best idea, improve the training and support given to referee`s?

But that for me is missing the point VAR wasn't brought in because referees make lots of mistakes in Law. I bet the player miss far more shots or missplace far more passes. The problem was always with the players managers and fans not accepting the decision like in rugby. What we need is propper discipline VAR after game you dive 5 game ban even if you don't appeal for it. Any backchat to referee will almost certainly come under the decent by word or action book em. Swear as part of it then red card. A few matches get abandoned because players cant control themselves and too few players on the pitch then that isn't the refs issue. The referees deserve respect and trying to make every decision correct doesn't really fit football or fix a participant /pundit behavior problem

 

[ZeroTheHero]

There has NEVER been a sport where every decision is correct. Even cricket or tennis - once the reviews are used up incorrectly there can still be mistakes. Which is why (if we have to have VAR) each manager should have one review per game. They can use it when they like, in any situation - if the challenge is correct (i.e. the officials have made a mistake) they retain the review. If not, they lose it. That would ensure that reviews would only be used when the manager was pretty sure they'd been hard done by (although I accept that sometimes the review would be used in desperation when the opponents scored a last minute goal!). There would be far less of them, and only the 'clear and obvious' errors would be dissected ad infinitum.

 

[horseman]

There has NEVER been a sport where every decision is correct. Even cricket or tennis - once the reviews are used up incorrectly there can still be mistakes. Which is why (if we have to have VAR) each manager should have one review per game. They can use it when they like, in any situation - if the challenge is correct (i.e. the officials have made a mistake) they retain the review. If not, they lose it. That would ensure that reviews would only be used when the manager was pretty sure they'd been hard done by (although I accept that sometimes the review would be used in desperation when the opponents scored a last minute goal!). There would be far less of them, and only the 'clear and obvious' errors would be dissected ad infinitum.

The flaw with that is that History shows that when their team did wrong they never saw the incident so they wouldn't know what to be looking for.))) Also why the manager? would need be the captain surely?

Mind you they could all learn some discipline and just leave it to the on field officials to do their job

 

[ZeroTheHero]

The flaw with that is that History shows that when their team did wrong they never saw the incident so they wouldn't know what to be looking for.))) Also why the manager? would need be the captain surely?

Sorry don't understand that! They would only use their review if they honestly thought the ref had made a mistake. They'd be stupid to use it for an incident they 'didn't see'! Manager or captain - it's the principle of limiting the number of reviews per match that is the point.

 

[Essexyellows]

But that for me is missing the point VAR wasn't brought in because referees make lots of mistakes in Law. I bet the player miss far more shots or missplace far more passes. The problem was always with the players managers and fans not accepting the decision like in rugby. What we need is propper discipline VAR after game you dive 5 game ban even if you don't appeal for it. Any backchat to referee will almost certainly come under the decent by word or action book em. Swear as part of it then red card. A few matches get abandoned because players cant control themselves and too few players on the pitch then that isn't the refs issue. The referees deserve respect and trying to make every decision correct doesn't really fit football or fix a participant /pundit behavior problem

100% agreement here. As a fairly regular Rugby attendee the gulf in discipline and respect between the two games is colossal. I also like the post match citing for offences. Tom Youngs found out the hard way after taking a swing at a Wasp`s player, gets reviewed post match, he`s got previous so gets a 4 game ban.

 

[dickwalton1964]

Football refereeing in this country is actually very good unfortunately the fans, managers and players aren't that bright enough to understand the laws (note the number on this thread who call them rules they are explicitly laws the ruddy book is called the "LAWS of the Game"). unfortunately now virtually every decision is now correct under an interpretation of the law. people may not like the interpretation but they are correct in law these decisions. Like every decision I as a qualified referee could give it one way a VAR ref might go the other both could be correct under the interpretation of the law. Unfortunately fans players and pundits brought this on themselves by bashing referees (who often refereed at a higher standard than the players play at (especially league 1)) now they have to put the decision through video so some muppet that has never refereed professionally knows they don't have to bother opening their mouth (except they still do). So far every VAR decision i have seen is correct in Law.

That’s your opinion. Mine is that we have the worst referees, across the main leagues, in Europe. Ours are terrible.