General Club/Player Mentality

[Wandering Yellow]

Oi, don’t drag me into this

Especially when I feel I have been very critical of the club of late

You're a vital part of the forum biosphere Steve

 

[Sheik Djibouti]

I watched the majority of the Pep documentary last night and it was interesting to note that at virtually every club he managed, they started poorly with many fans expressing frustration and a general air of wtf is he playing at??...before it all clicked into place and the right personnel to play the desired way were brought in with the right support staff to make it happen.
It happened at Barca, Bayern and Man City.

OK, this is only League 1 and we're only little Oxford....and we've only got a limited supply of League 1 standard players to call on, but just goes to prove that everyone thinks genius is crazy before they realise it's genius,

 

[greatunclekip]

I agree that @WuTang is a good poster. I go back to patience though. Three windows were needed to repair some of the damage done by KR. That takes time. I think Des has the know-how and the brains to get it right. He needs the players. We have a good squad that is getting better but it takes time. Relegation candidates to top six in nine months is pretty astonishing.

That said there are some areas that trouble me. I don't really understand the drop off of form for Ruben and Marcus (Marcus was world beating for the first few games - Cambridge Utd to one side) and right back is still a worry for me (sorry Sam).

It's very simple. They dont have a clue what their role is. Ruben in particular looks completely lost.

 

[frenchconnection]

Sadly..genius or crazy...I am beginning to think des won't cut it....I seriously hope I'm wrong but hand on heart I think not

 

[Eric Blair]

It's very simple. They dont have a clue what their role is. Ruben in particular looks completely lost.

You can see he is getting frustrated and giving the ref lip.

That said, I cant see that his role has changed that much. Has he been told to sit back more do you think?

 

[Sheik Djibouti]

Being asked to play one way, and now another from one season to the next is difficult enough, but being asked to do that within the space of 4 months and with not everything in place to make it work is nigh on impossible.

Even when Manning was here, nobody was really expecting much out of this season (seriously...were they?) given the scale of rebuild required. I feel that he start of the season would've been a pleasant surprise to just about everyone, probably Manning included!

Robinson and Appleton were afforded way more leeway than this at the start of their tenure.... what's the difference?

 

[MustardYellow]

Teams don't HAVE to do that. You can manage games without resorting to pettiness. What's to say that breaking up the game would have made any difference to the game against Derby? I've seen teams try to hang on against us many times in the past by doing that sort of thing and not manage it. Do you have any actual stats that show employing the 'dark arts' win more points than they lose?

I'm not saying we have to do it at all times, but in cases where it would increase our likelihood of winning the game then why wouldn't we?

We conceded two of the goals vs Derby after 80 minutes - we should've been completely 'shut up shop' by then. Logically speaking, the less amount of time the ball is in play, the lesser amount of time the opposition has to score a goal. As I say, we've seen that work wonders for Wycombe under Ainsworth.

 

[SteMerritt]

I'm not saying we have to do it at all times, but in cases where it would increase our likelihood of winning the game then why wouldn't we?

We conceded two of the goals vs Derby after 80 minutes - we should've been completely 'shut up shop' by then. Logically speaking, the less amount of time the ball is in play, the lesser amount of time the opposition has to score a goal. As I say, we've seen that work wonders for Wycombe under Ainsworth.

It's not a long-term tactic that brings results, as we also witnessed with Wycombe under Ainsworth. We need to be less naive in our play for sure, but turning into a niggly anti-football side isn't the way to do it.

And as I said, you have no idea if 'shutting up shop' would have made any difference whatsoever.

 

[Sheik Djibouti]

I mean....it's almost as if a team can "shut up shop" at will, just like I presume they should just "score a goal" at will too. It completely disregards the opposition and their relative effective/ineffectiveness against us (as does quite a bit of the analysis/criticism of Oxford performances on here at times). It's almost like the opposition are some CPU driven algorithm in a game and all we need to do is change the way we play and it will all work out in our favour

Citing the Derby match as an example, we were hanging on from about 30 minutes in and the tide was always turning. We had players literally out on their feet and practically nothing on the bench to counter the increasing threat from Derby. To suddenly pause the game, go into settings>tactics>shut up shop, isn't really that realistic imho. And those teams that do shut up shop as @SteMerritt points out tend to be the anti-football types who recruit and set up with that particular system in mind and practice that very thing week in, week out - they don't just turn it on.

So, may be the mentality around the club/ground/supporters needs to be based a bit more on realism

 

[Joey]

What concerns me is Des is from the CFG. And the mentality of the flagship CFG team Manchester City is to pass teams to death. Might work in the Premier League when the United Arab Emirates can buy you whichever player you require, but much harder to make work in League One.

Just to pick up on this point I don't think it holds much water. Man City obviously play at an incredibly high level technically but arguably their most important player is a 6ft 3 midfielder, they're always near the top of the league for goals scored from set pieces and near the bottom for conceded (helped by dominating possession of course) and there is often chat about how well they use tactical fouls when they lose possession high up the pitch. They know how to manage a game, they just don't have to that often because they're often out of sight.

I'm of the opinion that we need to be more streetwise for sure and that's been a problem for years now since the Appleton promotion team. Some posters will take that to the extreme and say they don't want to watch Wycombe but that's an exaggeration, we had players like MacDonald, Hylton and Maguire who knew how to manage a game, make a foul when needed, buy a free kick themselves without being particularly dirty. I always remember a game against Exeter around New Year, Dunkley had already been booked and then took out Ollie Watkins by the touchline just before half time. Clear as day yellow card, maybe even a red now, but before anything could happen MacDonald had sprinted over and pushed one of their lads over, a big shoving match started with four players being booked while Dunkley slunk off away from things. Got subbed at half time and we went on to win the game. I don't want that sort of thing to be the cornerstone of how we play but I'd like it to be a feature.

 

[BrockBuster]

The idea we should just be happy with what we get because things could be worse is quite a weak mentality to have when you're in competitive sport.

My point was, in the last few years we've had 2 opportunities to win cup finals at Wembley, 2 opportunities in the play-offs (and should've made them in another season), and we fell short in all of them. Put other clubs in those situations and that's deemed as failure and not good enough - after each of those events there would be a demand that the club pushes on. We don't really have that? If we fall short it's just sort of 'oh well'.

I don't think we're a club with a 'winners mentality'.

But how do you gauge that? Based on how much the crowd moans and kicks off on social? By some soundbites from the club in press communication? By players clenching a fist and hammering their chests?

We don't have the visibility within the changing room or the boardroom of the club. We had a manager who didn't live up to expectations despite going close on a few occasions, so got sacked. Watford are a club that demands they push on, and essentially are a managerial merry-go-round. People at the club have already absolutely have lost jobs due to poor performance. Players sold, released and sent back on loans. Coaches and Managers sacked.

There's loads of ways of fans showing dissatisfaction to a club. One yes, is by being vocal either at the ground or online. Another is engaging in constructive conversations on forums like this oblivious to the fact try as we might, our influence on the day to day of a club is tiny. And of course, there's the option to disengage - both financially and mentally.

There are very few clubs with a 'winners mentality' as per season only a handful 'win' in terms of cups, titles or promotions. The majority don't. Just saying it and having a impatient fanbase or board doesn't strike me as the best way to inspire better performance. You wouldn't say to someone in the food service industry if you mess up one order you get sacked and expect them to thrive in the job. That'll just create nerves and a feeling that it's a short-term gig regardless. Short-termism is one of the biggest issues with modern football. No wonder development goes out the window at so many clubs given a manager is highly unlikely to see a player in the U18s graduate to the first team before they're sacked, let alone those signing on at 13-14.

 

[MustardYellow]

I mean....it's almost as if a team can "shut up shop" at will, just like I presume they should just "score a goal" at will too. It completely disregards the opposition and their relative effective/ineffectiveness against us (as does quite a bit of the analysis/criticism of Oxford performances on here at times). It's almost like the opposition are some CPU driven algorithm in a game and all we need to do is change the way we play and it will all work out in our favour

Citing the Derby match as an example, we were hanging on from about 30 minutes in and the tide was always turning. We had players literally out on their feet and practically nothing on the bench to counter the increasing threat from Derby. To suddenly pause the game, go into settings>tactics>shut up shop, isn't really that realistic imho. And those teams that do shut up shop as @SteMerritt points out tend to be the anti-football types who recruit and set up with that particular system in mind and practice that very thing week in, week out - they don't just turn it on.

So, may be the mentality around the club/ground/supporters needs to be based a bit more on realism

Are you seriously suggesting that the concept of holding onto a win by using legitimate tactics isn't 'based on realism'...?

Earlier this week we saw Barnsley employ the dark arts against us to hang on to a win. Any momentum we tried to build was quickly shut down through a bit of time wasting, them knowing how to win cheap free-kicks etc. Are you suggesting Barnsley are set up to be 'anti-football'? Those tactics aren't some video game fantasy - they're deployed by all teams (other than us) when the time calls for it.

 

[SteMerritt]

they're deployed by all teams (other than us) when the time calls for it.

Apart from when we played Blackpool earlier in the year. And Bristol Rovers, come to think about it. We do slow things down and try to hold what we have at times, to say we never do it is a bit wide of the mark.

 

[Sheik Djibouti]

Are you seriously suggesting that the concept of holding onto a win by using legitimate tactics isn't 'based on realism'...?

Earlier this week we saw Barnsley employ the dark arts against us to hang on to a win. Any momentum we tried to build was quickly shut down through a bit of time wasting, them knowing how to win cheap free-kicks etc. Are you suggesting Barnsley are set up to be 'anti-football'? Those tactics aren't some video game fantasy - they're deployed by all teams (other than us) when the time calls for it.

Not when you don't have the players to do it, no it isn't!

 

[tonyw]

Think I fall on both sides of this debate.

On the one hand - I absolutely agree and believe that we need more hard bastards in our squad. Players that will win you the right to play, will stop you from getting bullied and will do what's needed to finish off games. Ciaron Brown is one, Greg Leigh might be another, Cam has the mentality but not really the frame, and that's about it. I'm hoping that Goodwin has this streak when we ultimately get to see him play more.

We haven't had anyone resembling an enforcer in midfield since ARG did his knee the first time. Would love to see that rectified.


But on the other hand.....I actually kind of love League One. It has this magic blend of big clubs going through hard times and tiny clubs punching above their weight. Most of the local-ish clubs with whom we have the most history are currently playing at this level (Scum & Looton excepted). And as long as we're well-managed, we win more often than we lose. It's just a great league for us.

So whilst there's never a game that I don't want us to win, and whilst I would maniacally celebrate a promotion......there's also a piece of me that thinks that I probably wouldn't enjoy other steps of the football pyramid as much as I enjoy this one (with Oxford in the Premier League being the ultimate achievement and my worst footballing nightmare simultaneously!). And therefore I will admit that I am much more likely to shrug and say 'Oh well' if we fail to get promoted than the OP might like.

 

[maidenheadox]

I think a lot of people are reading way too much into that Barnsley game. Awful conditions. Made both teams look bad. They sneaked a goal. We didn't, but could easily have done so. That's football.

Plenty of examples this season of us scoring late goals or coming from behind to win. Or just comprehensively outplaying the opposition. I guess those weeks the mentality at the club is world beating.

 

[werthersoriginal]

Ciaron Brown even looks quite hard in interviews! The rest of the players seem very nice boys, which is actually something I like about our team, but we do need someone hard in midfield, and someone a bit sneaky. We haven't had that since Matty left.

 

[Mateo Corbo's Tackle]

Funnily enough it seemed we were the most "hard bastard" kind of a team when Short had his short stint as boss. Manning and Buckingham didn't/don't really instil it, and Robinson was so far away from instilling it that he just spent hours in interviews complaining about other teams adopting it and doing literally zero about it himself.

That said, I honestly believe that we have a pool of talent that if managed correctly, with swift pass and movement football, we won't ever need to worry about being a "hard bastard" team. We'll win enough games to go up just doing that. I know if's easier said that done, and we sure as anything aren't close enough to getting those basics right on a consistent level. But if you're good enough, this whole conversation is a moot point. We need to concentrate on that.

 

[Eric Blair]

Ciaron Brown even looks quite hard in interviews! The rest of the players seem very nice boys, which is actually something I like about our team, but we do need someone hard in midfield, and someone a bit sneaky. We haven't had that since Matty left.

If I had to choose a player I would least like to fight it would be Ciaron Brown closely followed by Cameron Brannagan. Marcus MaGuane would take me out in sub-30 seconds I reckon and Joe Bennett would have no problems. I fancy my chances against Tyler Goodrham though.

 

[Eric Blair]

If I had to choose a player I would least like to fight it would be Ciaron Brown closely followed by Cameron Brannagan. Marcus MaGuane would take me out in sub-30 seconds I reckon and Joe Bennett would have no problems. I fancy my chances against Tyler Goodrham though.

Maybe even Josh Murphy but that's only because he has one functioning leg.

 

[Eric Blair]

And for the record I definitely wouldn't fancy fighting Craig Short

 

[tonyw]

Funnily enough it seemed we were the most "hard bastard" kind of a team when Short had his short stint as boss. Manning and Buckingham didn't/don't really instil it, and Robinson was so far away from instilling it that he just spent hours in interviews complaining about other teams adopting it and doing literally zero about it himself.

That said, I honestly believe that we have a pool of talent that if managed correctly, with swift pass and movement football, we won't ever need to worry about being a "hard bastard" team. We'll win enough games to go up just doing that. I know if's easier said that done, and we sure as anything aren't close enough to getting those basics right on a consistent level. But if you're good enough, this whole conversation is a moot point. We need to concentrate on that.

You're advocating not being a 'hard bastard' team? With your username?!?

 

[Mateo Corbo's Tackle]

You're advocating not being a 'hard bastard' team? With your username?!?

Mateo's tackles were always perfectly timed and he never got the man. Ever.

 

[SteMerritt]

If I had to choose a player I would least like to fight it would be Ciaron Brown closely followed by Cameron Brannagan. Marcus MaGuane would take me out in sub-30 seconds I reckon and Joe Bennett would have no problems. I fancy my chances against Tyler Goodrham though.

Fighting Tyler Goodrham is like punching a kitten though, I should ban you for even thinking about it...

 

[werthersoriginal]

If I had to choose a player I would least like to fight it would be Ciaron Brown closely followed by Cameron Brannagan. Marcus MaGuane would take me out in sub-30 seconds I reckon and Joe Bennett would have no problems. I fancy my chances against Tyler Goodrham though.

Elliott Moore has a kindly look but is absolutely massive, so you wouldn't want to annoy him. James Henry would defeat you with quips and clever reasoning.

 

[Eric Blair]

Elliott Moore has a kindly look but is absolutely massive, so you wouldn't want to annoy him. James Henry would defeat you with quips and clever reasoning.

Yes, Elliott Moore would take no pleasure in defeating me. He'd do just enough to stop me from getting up and biting his ankles and no more. Spot on re: James Henry.

I've a feeling Cam Bran - if provoked enough - would rip my head off and then eat it.

 

[SteMerritt]

Yes, Elliott Moore would take no pleasure in defeating me. He'd do just enough to stop me from getting up and biting his ankles and no more. Spot on re: James Henry.

I've a feeling Cam Bran - if provoked enough - would rip my head off and then eat it.

The club have just announced Billy Whitehurst is a guest at the Reading game. If you fancy testing yourself, Billy's your man...

 

[Sarge]

The club have just announced Billy Whitehurst is a guest at the Reading game. If you fancy testing yourself, Billy's your man...

will he be holding a bareknuckle session at halftime, taking on all comers, with Rosie refereeing?

 

[Eric Blair]

The club have just announced Billy Whitehurst is a guest at the Reading game. If you fancy testing yourself, Billy's your man...

Bloody hell. He's 20 years older than me and I would still be scared to be in the same room as him. A bit like that time Gattuso took on Joe Jordan (if Gattuso was a slightly fat middle-aged lad from Croydon)

 

[SteMerritt]

Bloody hell. He's 20 years older than me and I would still be scared to be in the same room as him. A bit like that time Gattuso took on Joe Jordan (if Gattuso was a slightly fat middle-aged lad from Croydon)

What a moment that was, if people don't know what happened, the BBC did an article on it...

The night Gattuso clashed with 'Jaws' Jordan in Milan

Tottenham's Champions League trip to AC Milan on Tuesday comes 12 years to the day since the infamous clash between Gennaro Gattuso and Joe Jordan at the San Siro.

www.bbc.co.uk

Despite being grabbed by the throat, Jordan doesn't look rattled in the slightest