National News Brexit - the Deal or No Deal poll

[Marked Ox]

He absolutely can do that, but is there a majority to extend article 50 to enable parliament taking control of the process and agreeing on something? The "people's vote" crew can't even agree on wording, let alone what to do. I think Maybot worded stuff in a way by delaying the vote that it makes it hard. A rare bit of forethought.

The EUs intransigence on helping Maybot has really limited the options. A little assistance on the wording on the backstop would help her, but they pushed her head further into the dirt. They are almost forcing a No Deal on us

There is without a doubt a majority to stop a No deal Brexit. If the Speaker was to take action then I suspect a majority across the house would emerge to extend A50 for a more ordered approach rather than the farce that is playing out due to the intransigence of May and Corbyn. Remember, Corbyn is desperately trying not to bring a no confidence vote against the Govt as when he loses and fails to get a GE then automatically Labour's policy switches to pushing for a 2nd referendum. Bercow taking action would sideline the bottleneck of May's and Corbyn's personal pride.

As for the EU's intransigence on the backstop, they have been consistent which has funnily enough followed the principles of the Good Friday Agreement. All the backstop issues now culminate from how May has acted before and since triggering A50, she has brought it all on herself. May agreed the legally binding wording weeks ago so she now can't complain about it after months of negotiations.

Why is it "intransigence" by the EU? They negotiated in good faith with May and May knew the opposition in Parliament to such a position (especially as she is reliant on the DUP* and they haven't been shy in telling her) so she should have factored it in. The EU offered to do a supplementary clarification but that would never satisfy the ERG or the DUP as rightly it would never supercede the legally binding agreement. If May hadn't been so obsessed with her own party and dealt with the House as a whole trying to build a consensus across the house early in the process, rather than the ridiculous GE and pontificating since triggering A50, then we may have had an orderly exit.

Also, the EU is rightly looking to protect its member, which Ireland is.


*It is ridiculous being reliant on a party who basically want her to square a circle.

 

[Essexyellows]

There is without a doubt a majority to stop a No deal Brexit. If the Speaker was to take action then I suspect a majority across the house would emerge to extend A50 for a more ordered approach rather than the farce that is playing out due to the intransigence of May and Corbyn. Remember, Corbyn is desperately trying not to bring a no confidence vote against the Govt as when he loses and fails to get a GE then automatically Labour's policy switches to pushing for a 2nd referendum. Bercow taking action would sideline the bottleneck of May's and Corbyn's personal pride.

As for the EU's intransigence on the backstop, they have been consistent which has funnily enough followed the principles of the Good Friday Agreement. All the backstop issues now culminate from how May has acted before and since triggering A50, she has brought it all on herself. May agreed the legally binding wording weeks ago so she now can't complain about it after months of negotiations.

Why is it "intransigence" by the EU? They negotiated in good faith with May and May knew the opposition in Parliament to such a position (especially as she is reliant on the DUP* and they haven't been shy in telling her) so she should have factored it in. The EU offered to do a supplementary clarification but that would never satisfy the ERG or the DUP as rightly it would never supercede the legally binding agreement. If May hadn't been so obsessed with her own party and dealt with the House as a whole trying to build a consensus across the house early in the process, rather than the ridiculous GE and pontificating since triggering A50, then we may have had an orderly exit.

Also, the EU is rightly looking to protect its member, which Ireland is.


*It is ridiculous being reliant on a party who basically want her to square a circle.

Simple fix.
Do nothing with the NI/Ireland border, leave it as it is. No change.
If the EU protecting a member state want to put up a physical border then let them.
We only need to act if there is illicit acts going on with smuggling of goods/people across an "open" border.

May abjectly failed to lay down the terms of us leaving in strong enough language.
She failed to clearly define the instruction given by the majority of the voters.
The EU want to retain us for as long as the money flows their way......... kicking the can is their specialty.

 

[Peterdev]

The EUs attitude is nothing new as they don’t know how to compromise on anything 8 can easily recall to mind.
I still feel May a pro EU PM and the EU who want us to stay in will not or cannot agree an orderly exit.
May is angling, despite words to the contrary, to keep us in the EU. The EU are pleased that there is no settlement.
Because of the lack of progress, we will end up with a ‘people’s referendum’ which only the remainders want.
Do we want her ‘agreement’, the one Brussels told us is non negotiable....would we like to leave without agreement?...with all the disaster forecast by the BOE and so many others. Third option shall we stay in the EU?

Those who vote out will consider whether it’s worth voting as the government won’t do what was voted for in 2016.

We will end up staying in allowing democracy to be thwarted again, just like in France and Ireland with the Lisbon Treaty

 

[ZeroTheHero]

The EUs attitude is nothing new as they don’t know how to compromise on anything 8 can easily recall to mind.

Why should they compromise enough to satisfy those who want the moon on a stick?

WE are leaving THEM. We are quitting the club, ripping up our season ticket and giving them the Vs as we slope off and then turning around and asking if they'll be nice to us, let us in to games for the same as we did when we belonged and wanting to be voted supporter of the year. All of which would (rightly) P**s off the other paying customers, so they won't do it. They can't do it or the EU is finished as everyone else will try to have their half time pie for cheap, eat it and then ask for seconds.

It's no good voting to leave and them being annoyed that (with the realisation that we are no longer a 'Great Power') we are really not a lynch pin of the EU and so important that we get mates rates when we b****r off.

 

[tonyw]

Simple fix.
Do nothing with the NI/Ireland border, leave it as it is. No change.
If the EU protecting a member state want to put up a physical border then let them.
We only need to act if there is illicit acts going on with smuggling of goods/people across an "open" border.

See I don't get this at all. Most people wanted Brexit to control Britain's border - and yet, the first order of the day is to leave the one land border Britain has entirely open?

If smuggling of goods/people occurs? It will be a cast-iron guarantee! Hell, last time I visited Londonderry, most of the people there drove to the Republic to fill up their cars - that in itself will be smuggling of goods after a no deal Brexit. Unless the decision is to not charge any tariffs on incoming European goods......that'll protect prices for British consumers, but likely completely screw up British industry when they have no improved access to British markets but suddenly are not price competitive in the EU.


Anyways, sounds like the cabinet has decided to start planning for a no deal Brexit today. Only 101 days to go - what could go wrong?

 

[Peterdev]

Withold the payments and I’ll bet they’ll take notice

 

[Marked Ox]

Withold the payments and I’ll bet they’ll take notice

That'll bode well for trust when negotiating with parties for trade agreements other than the EU when we don't fulfil our responsibilities in a fit of pique.

 

[carefreeoufc]

Withhold the money.... and then put £2bn to one side whilst allocating further spending to send a series of information packs out to the British public and businesses.

This £39bn pot of gold isn’t going to last long!

 

[Gary Baldi]

There is without a doubt a majority to stop a No deal Brexit. If the Speaker was to take action then I suspect a majority across the house would emerge to extend A50 for a more ordered approach rather than the farce that is playing out due to the intransigence of May and Corbyn. Remember, Corbyn is desperately trying not to bring a no confidence vote against the Govt as when he loses and fails to get a GE then automatically Labour's policy switches to pushing for a 2nd referendum. Bercow taking action would sideline the bottleneck of May's and Corbyn's personal pride.

As for the EU's intransigence on the backstop, they have been consistent which has funnily enough followed the principles of the Good Friday Agreement. All the backstop issues now culminate from how May has acted before and since triggering A50, she has brought it all on herself. May agreed the legally binding wording weeks ago so she now can't complain about it after months of negotiations.

Why is it "intransigence" by the EU? They negotiated in good faith with May and May knew the opposition in Parliament to such a position (especially as she is reliant on the DUP* and they haven't been shy in telling her) so she should have factored it in. The EU offered to do a supplementary clarification but that would never satisfy the ERG or the DUP as rightly it would never supercede the legally binding agreement. If May hadn't been so obsessed with her own party and dealt with the House as a whole trying to build a consensus across the house early in the process, rather than the ridiculous GE and pontificating since triggering A50, then we may have had an orderly exit.

Also, the EU is rightly looking to protect its member, which Ireland is.


*It is ridiculous being reliant on a party who basically want her to square a circle.

The issue is the Tories who are flip flopping on May. How far are they willing to go to stop Corbyn? Is a managed No Deal and Maybot out soon after better than a muddled parliamentary field and a General Election/2nd referendum? Which poison are they willing to take? JRM has suddenly become a lot more conciliatory in the past few days and time is ticking. Where was the "people's vote" lot 18 months ago?

It's intransigence because for very little they could help a lot - Maybot really isn't asking for a lot. Right now they are looking at a big trading partner crashing out on a No Deal, they lose 39 billion in a gift from the UK and trading for them to us gets a lot harder. The French and Spanish won't be able to fish in our waters which is a big deal, German car markers will struggle to shift their products to the UK, the Irish economy could struggle, etc. All over a few words that will get them 39 billion and guarantee a good portion of the budget for the next few financial years.

 

[Gary Baldi]

Withold the payments and I’ll bet they’ll take notice

Their biggest weakness is their budget and how fast the money will run out when one of the few net contributors leaves. We both need each other, for different reasons.

 

[Marked Ox]

The issue is the Tories who are flip flopping on May. How far are they willing to go to stop Corbyn? Is a managed No Deal and Maybot out soon after better than a muddled parliamentary field and a General Election/2nd referendum? Which poison are they willing to take? JRM has suddenly become a lot more conciliatory in the past few days and time is ticking. Where was the "people's vote" lot 18 months ago?

It's intransigence because for very little they could help a lot - Maybot really isn't asking for a lot. Right now they are looking at a big trading partner crashing out on a No Deal, they lose 39 billion in a gift from the UK and trading for them to us gets a lot harder. The French and Spanish won't be able to fish in our waters which is a big deal, German car markers will struggle to shift their products to the UK, the Irish economy could struggle, etc. All over a few words that will get them 39 billion and guarantee a good portion of the budget for the next few financial years.

The people's vote lot have gained prominence due to the utter incompetence shown by May from the start.

They offered clarification but May wanted the impossible, the backstop changed and that was never going to happen after only just completing negotiations. Whatever they said is irrelevant anyway as the backstop is legally binding, the clarification is just words with no legal standing. The ERG and DUP etc would never back the clarification and nor would the other side I suspect.

The EU have been consistent on the Backstop so it isn't intransigence especially with the inconsistency of May's approach.

 

[cassox]

starting to get annoyed now.....Peoples vote?? oh that vote where that Green party ventriloquist doll wants the options to be MAY'S deal or REMAIN?? do the remoaners REALLY think we are retarded or summat???........NO DEAL is the only way.....i can't believe we have THAT many spineless snowflake wimps in this country...tchhhhh we cannot trust the witch pm either ....mobilising 3500 troops??? hmmmm probably to curtail the mass protests and disruption that will happen when she changes her mind yet again ......she must be warned....WE THE PEOPLE will NOT stand by and let her destroy democracy.......instead of rioting etc etc which just costs peoples businesses and ruins city centres we should target every MPs home and see if they want to go against the people....they can do it FACE to FACE.

 

[lodeyellow]

starting to get annoyed now.....Peoples vote?? oh that vote where that Green party ventriloquist doll wants the options to be MAY'S deal or REMAIN?? do the remoaners REALLY think we are retarded or summat???........NO DEAL is the only way.....i can't believe we have THAT many spineless snowflake wimps in this country...tchhhhh we cannot trust the witch pm either ....mobilising 3500 troops??? hmmmm probably to curtail the mass protests and disruption that will happen when she changes her mind yet again ......she must be warned....WE THE PEOPLE will NOT stand by and let her destroy democracy.......instead of rioting etc etc which just costs peoples businesses and ruins city centres we should target every MPs home and see if they want to go against the people....they can do it FACE to FACE.

What a load of absolute tripe. Or is it supposed to be satirical … ?

 

[Northstandboy]

Can Parliament not block a no deal?

 

[Peterdev]

I think you’ll find parliament can block a no vote. The referendum result is advisory and the remainers like Heseltine make much capital out of it. We are being softened up for another referendum, because government an£ the EU don’t want us to leave

 

[Gary Baldi]

The people's vote lot have gained prominence due to the utter incompetence shown by May from the start.

They offered clarification but May wanted the impossible, the backstop changed and that was never going to happen after only just completing negotiations. Whatever they said is irrelevant anyway as the backstop is legally binding, the clarification is just words with no legal standing. The ERG and DUP etc would never back the clarification and nor would the other side I suspect.

The EU have been consistent on the Backstop so it isn't intransigence especially with the inconsistency of May's approach.

But the "people's vote" have less detail than Maybot does! It's striking how they just keep saying "people's vote" but offer little other than that soundbite. Are they really prepared for a vote? I see no talk of legalities, nor wording, nor timing, nor process. It's just hot air so far.

Maybot didn't ask for the impossible (or anything near) and if the EU were being smart, they'd use a small update to the backstop text as a big hammer on the trading negotiations in the future. The mood of the ERG and DUP has changed recently, so nothing is impossible there.

It looks like we're stumbling on into January, and Corbyn's vote of no confidence has gone nowhere. Than in itself says a lot. He has the same issue as the Tory rebels; when to use the nuclear option.

 

[Gary Baldi]

I think you’ll find parliament can block a no vote. The referendum result is advisory and the remainers like Heseltine make much capital out of it. We are being softened up for another referendum, because government an£ the EU don’t want us to leave

And ironically, Maybot staying in charge reduces the chance of a "people's vote". I'd be interested to see if a "people's vote" is advisory, but they such little detail out there for the plebs, it's hard to know what they think!

 

[Essexyellows]

See I don't get this at all. Most people wanted Brexit to control Britain's border - and yet, the first order of the day is to leave the one land border Britain has entirely open?

If smuggling of goods/people occurs? It will be a cast-iron guarantee! Hell, last time I visited Londonderry, most of the people there drove to the Republic to fill up their cars - that in itself will be smuggling of goods after a no deal Brexit. Unless the decision is to not charge any tariffs on incoming European goods......that'll protect prices for British consumers, but likely completely screw up British industry when they have no improved access to British markets but suddenly are not price competitive in the EU.


Anyways, sounds like the cabinet has decided to start planning for a no deal Brexit today. Only 101 days to go - what could go wrong?

Well we are back to WTO tariffs which the EU tariffs are based on then........................ .
Its the biggest sticking point so is the one that needs either fixing PDQ or leaving.
Easy enough to softly monitor traffic, easy enough to softly monitor people as they currently do, any major changes then there is a reason to act.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

Labours biggest problem right now is Corbyn himself. Serial campaigner and opposer but not a leader and not one who can unify the party. They are almost as divided as the Tories over this.

As for the peoples vote, it just goes to show what a sorry mess this all is. The fact that there is absolutely no consensus on the way forward is the reason why they cannot nail any colours to any particular mast. Their position is that the people should decide...but nobody can decide on what they should decide on.

As for the softening of the ERG...perhaps that's because they have woken up to what even many of their supporters are saying about the calamity of a no deal and maybe because JRM still has some deluded political ambition left??

 

[Gary Baldi]

Well we are back to WTO tariffs which the EU tariffs are based on then........................ .
Its the biggest sticking point so is the one that needs either fixing PDQ or leaving.
Easy enough to softly monitor traffic, easy enough to softly monitor people as they currently do, any major changes then there is a reason to act.

And it would be very interesting (with a No Deal if it happens) to see what the EU would do if the UK left the NI border as is.