National News Brexit - the Deal or No Deal poll

[Gary Baldi]

But regardless, we are where we are.

And certainly, the EUs insistence of doing it as we have, has rather made it harder than it may have been. How much easier would it have been to talk trade in the past few years while the getting the exit agreement done, to give a sense of this what we can agree to, etc? We agreed to a navel gazing bureaucratic process and we're stuck in a navel gazing bureaucratic process as a consequence.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

Two issues that I keep coming back to.

Firstly...."It's what the majority voted for and it is what we must enact".

It's very easy to conflate the majority who voted with the majority of the (voting age) population. I get the argument that you should vote to be counted but in the terms of a simple referendum question, it is a very different type of vote to an election.

At an election, something has come to an end, either because law requires it or the current government desire it. We are asked to choose the next thing and persons to replace it. If you stay silent, you have to make do with what people do choose.

At the referendum, it was a choice between maintaining what we already had and choosing something different. In hindsight, wouldn't it have been better to inform those eligible to vote that you will be taken to accept the status quo if you do not express a contrary opinion - ie, carry on as we were and make it a binding, rather than advisory vote, it may compel more people to engage if they felt that strongly.

Secondly, this belief that "the will of the people" is somehow infallible. No it isn't and history is littered with examples where the supposed "will of the people " has been manipulated with disastrous consequences.

Given what we know about the undeliverables that were promised (on both sides) not to mention the fact that campaigns have been proved to be on breach of electoral law, given the consequences and nature(ie once in a generation, not once in 5 year parliament) of that change, should we not expect the whole process to have been above reproach and be demonstrably so?

How can you be happy that such a decision has been achieved through ill-gotten means and a dirty, grubby, shady and shameful process?

Whether or not you believe in leave or remain is almost becoming irrelevant. What we should all agree on is that the whole process from inception of the referendum, the press coverage for decades leading up to it, the way the main players and those with vested interests have been allowed to play fast and loose with throw away lines faux concern and dodgy assertions, is a shameful episode in our democratic history.

We should consign the whole process to the bin and start again and change politics for good as part of that process. The current system is FUBAR.

Second point is about how we have negotiated and how we have been forced to do it in a certain way. I really don't get this argument.
We decided to leave, we decided to break the contract, we decided to ask for the divorce.

In real life, how far would you get if you then tried to dictate the terms of that negotiation?

And in any case, it was our government who agreed to those terms (you know, the ones "we" elected).

I also don't get this "it would be better with a brexiteer at the helm". How? What would they do better? How would they be better able to negotiate? Or would (as I very much suspect) be staring firmly down the barrel of no deal..which parliament would never support in any case. Only the swivel-eyed disaster capitalists, those too rich and insulated from the true impact and those whove been told "it will all be great and you'll soon be in the sunlit uplands" see that as a plausible option...don't they?

 

[Anthomic]

Two issues that I keep coming back to.

Firstly...."It's what the majority voted for and it is what we must enact".

It's very easy to conflate the majority who voted with the majority of the (voting age) population. I get the argument that you should vote to be counted but in the terms of a simple referendum question, it is a very different type of vote to an election.

At an election, something has come to an end, either because law requires it or the current government desire it. We are asked to choose the next thing and persons to replace it. If you stay silent, you have to make do with what people do choose.

At the referendum, it was a choice between maintaining what we already had and choosing something different. In hindsight, wouldn't it have been better to inform those eligible to vote that you will be taken to accept the status quo if you do not express a contrary opinion - ie, carry on as we were and make it a binding, rather than advisory vote, it may compel more people to engage if they felt that strongly.

Secondly, this belief that "the will of the people" is somehow infallible. No it isn't and history is littered with examples where the supposed "will of the people " has been manipulated with disastrous consequences.

Given what we know about the undeliverables that were promised (on both sides) not to mention the fact that campaigns have been proved to be on breach of electoral law, given the consequences and nature(ie once in a generation, not once in 5 year parliament) of that change, should we not expect the whole process to have been above reproach and be demonstrably so?

How can you be happy that such a decision has been achieved through ill-gotten means and a dirty, grubby, shady and shameful process?

Whether or not you believe in leave or remain is almost becoming irrelevant. What we should all agree on is that the whole process from inception of the referendum, the press coverage for decades leading up to it, the way the main players and those with vested interests have been allowed to play fast and loose with throw away lines faux concern and dodgy assertions, is a shameful episode in our democratic history.

We should consign the whole process to the bin and start again and change politics for good as part of that process. The current system is FUBAR.

Second point is about how we have negotiated and how we have been forced to do it in a certain way. I really don't get this argument.
We decided to leave, we decided to break the contract, we decided to ask for the divorce.

In real life, how far would you get if you then tried to dictate the terms of that negotiation?

And in any case, it was our government who agreed to those terms (you know, the ones "we" elected).

I also don't get this "it would be better with a brexiteer at the helm". How? What would they do better? How would they be better able to negotiate? Or would (as I very much suspect) be staring firmly down the barrel of no deal..which parliament would never support in any case. Only the swivel-eyed disaster capitalists, those too rich and insulated from the true impact and those whove been told "it will all be great and you'll soon be in the sunlit uplands" see that as a plausible option...don't they?

There was no need to negotiate we voted to leave. Just leave as we should have done three years ago we would then have as long as it takes if we choose to negotiate.

 

[Peterdev]

Didn’t Cameron keep stating if we vote to leave we will leave, then he left?
I guess he knew that there would be years of wrangling because the MPs are determined not to deliver as are the EU.
People now have no faith in politicians and have to put up,with Cable trying to extract votes from anti brexiters, meanwhile Corbyn tries to get us to sign a treaty to join the customs union while half his party want yet another vote.
And then we have the Conservative party failing to run the country as they have been preoccupied with Brexit for three years.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

@Anthomic

So you think it would have been a good idea to just walk out of the EU straight after the vote? Never mind any treaties, contracts and agreements in place? Never mind the damage that would have done immediately to trade, security, research etc etc? Even the most extreme Brexiteers haven't said that would have been a good idea!
It's no good thinking of the other European countries (yes, we are Europeans, too!) as somehow being our enemies - people to get one over on, show them who's boss etc. They are (whether we are in or out of the EU) our friends, allies and trading partners - and dealing with them calmly, rationally and in a civilised manner is not just the right way, but also the only way to do so. We have to have an amicable working relationship with these countries in the future, for all our sakes.

 

[Paul Cannell]

@Anthomic

It's no good thinking of the other European countries (yes, we are Europeans, too!) as somehow being our enemies

We should think of them as prey.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

A bit like an angry mouse thinks of a big rock? That sort of prey?

 

[Gary Baldi]

Second point is about how we have negotiated and how we have been forced to do it in a certain way. I really don't get this argument.
We decided to leave, we decided to break the contract, we decided to ask for the divorce.

Simply, on an item like the Irish Backstop, we are in a position where we have absolutely no indication of what our trading relationship will be or any indication if we will have one at all. Naturally, the worse case scenario is assumed and thus we're all stuck on a minor part of a massive treaty that has become an immovable molehill against the mountain of what else needs to happen.

By being able to talk trade earlier, the intention of both sides is clear, there is a visibility of a mutual solution, rather than what we have, which is sweet FA. We can progress together forwards.

 

[m]

There was no need to negotiate we voted to leave. Just leave as we should have done three years ago we would then have as long as it takes if we choose to negotiate.

Why are you so desperate to put a border back in Ireland?

 

[Marked Ox]

Nigel Farage 'fled' after his Range Rover smashed into Jaguar carrying a toddler

NIGEL Farage legged it after his chauffeur-driven 4×4 crashed head-on with a Jag carrying a toddler, it was claimed last night. Pub landlord Patrick Tranter says son George, 13 months, was bad…

www.thesun.co.uk

A nothing piece although if true doesn't paint a good picture but then divisive politics using race doesn't seem to stop him. My favourite comment by the landlord about Farage was "Man of the people, my a**e".

 

[Sarge]

Nigel Farage 'fled' after his Range Rover smashed into Jaguar carrying a toddler

NIGEL Farage legged it after his chauffeur-driven 4×4 crashed head-on with a Jag carrying a toddler, it was claimed last night. Pub landlord Patrick Tranter says son George, 13 months, was bad…

www.thesun.co.uk

A nothing piece although if true doesn't paint a good picture but then divisive politics using race doesn't seem to stop him. My favourite comment by the landlord about Farage was "Man of the people, my a**e".

Farage barred from a/his local pub as a result, it appears ?

 

[Marked Ox]

Farage barred from a/his local pub as a result, it appears ?

Yep although doesn't sound bothered.

 

[Gary Baldi]

It's a nice way for the landlord to advertise his boozer in front of the country isn't it?

Polling today suggests the Brexit party are leading the polls for the Euro Elections and in line for a significant amount of MPs if an election is called. The 2nd part, I'd think is massively over egged in our electoral ssytem, but the first part is more likely spot on.

 

[Peterdev]

I’d be inclined to agree. Mind you if Brexit do romp to victory as is widely predicted, will we have a second referendum as surely the message would be loud and clear.
A general election will have 650 Brexit candidates standing. UKIP will surely be dead and buried.
Even under the electoral system we currently have there must be a chance of an electoral breakthrough for Brexit. PR is a fairer system but a referendum rejected it and I don’t agree with a people’s vote because it was thrown out.
Interesting in Scotland that Nicola Sturgeon didn’t like either of the two referendum results and wants people’s votes on both again.
The vote on 23 May might just serve notice on our MPs and MEPs they shouldn’t ignore the will of the people in the referendum.
It was made abundantly clear by Cameron that the vote would be respected. MPs voted on Article 50. No wonder people are sick and tired of our representatives in parliament.
If polls are to be believed the two party system might well be finished

 

[Marked Ox]

I’d be inclined to agree. Mind you if Brexit do romp to victory as is widely predicted, will we have a second referendum as surely the message would be loud and clear.
A general election will have 650 Brexit candidates standing. UKIP will surely be dead and buried.
Even under the electoral system we currently have there must be a chance of an electoral breakthrough for Brexit. PR is a fairer system but a referendum rejected it and I don’t agree with a people’s vote because it was thrown out.
Interesting in Scotland that Nicola Sturgeon didn’t like either of the two referendum results and wants people’s votes on both again.
The vote on 23 May might just serve notice on our MPs and MEPs they shouldn’t ignore the will of the people in the referendum.
It was made abundantly clear by Cameron that the vote would be respected. MPs voted on Article 50. No wonder people are sick and tired of our representatives in parliament.
If polls are to be believed the two party system might well be finished

The Euro elections aren't a rerun of the referendum, as turnout will not be near the turnout for a referendum whichever way the vote goes (ie. Whether more vote for a Brexit Party or a Remain party).

 

[Peterdev]

They’re not in the strictest sense I agree. However, it will be very interesting to see how the party leaders react to an outcome very pro brexit.
I’ve certainly noticed an absence of political campaigning in my area. I think they know the writing is in the wall.
I can see all Cable, Corbyn and May gone before the end of the year

 

[Gary Baldi]

After the local elections, there was a very pro-Remain perspective, so I am interested to see what happens with the Euro elections afterwards if the Brexit get near to their polling.

The Euro Elections are not a re-run of any referendum, but electorally, the opportunity to place the same wedge that the Lib Dems got in the local elections into UK politics. This party political broadcast from them will resonate very well in certain areas - cynical but clever.

 

[Marked Ox]

After the local elections, there was a very pro-Remain perspective, so I am interested to see what happens with the Euro elections afterwards if the Brexit get near to their polling.

The Euro Elections are not a re-run of any referendum, but electorally, the opportunity to place the same wedge that the Lib Dems got in the local elections into UK politics. This party political broadcast from them will resonate very well in certain areas - cynical but clever.

Where did you see there was a very pro-remain perspective? May claimed it backed up pushing through Brexit!

 

[Gary Baldi]

Where did you see there was a very pro-remain perspective? May claimed it backed up pushing through Brexit!

That is the first part of the problem. May claimed... I would be surprised if she is the PM soon as even the most ardent rats are deserting the Maybot ship it seems. The local parties it seems are in a mood to rewrite the rules to get rid of her, and a leaflet she sent out only made it worse.

The Liberals were understandably saying the result justified cancelling Brexit (or whatever the specific phrase was), plus plenty of other pro-Remain individuals were saying the results were an indictment that a soft Brexit was the order of the day - all understandable of course - but lacking in a little nuance of the Euro Elections.

 

[Marked Ox]

That is the first part of the problem. May claimed... I would be surprised if she is the PM soon as even the most ardent rats are deserting the Maybot ship it seems. The local parties it seems are in a mood to rewrite the rules to get rid of her, and a leaflet she sent out only made it worse.

The Liberals were understandably saying the result justified cancelling Brexit (or whatever the specific phrase was), plus plenty of other pro-Remain individuals were saying the results were an indictment that a soft Brexit was the order of the day - all understandable of course - but lacking in a little nuance of the Euro Elections.

The local associations can't change the rules although they can make their opinion known. 1922 Committee can change the rules though but they don't seem keen to, up to the last that I saw.

The coverage on the local elections night and the following day was laughable in trying to link it for or against Brexit. The BBC keeping quoting the interview with the Labour Sunderland Council leader as a reason for Labour to change its policy to supporting no deal was hilarious especially when even a Brexiteer pointed out the flaws of that analysis.