National News The Brexit Thread 🇬🇧🇪🇺

[QR]

I know he is being hypocritical by pushing brexit and moving to Europe formtax reasons

I feel like quoting John Lydon.

 

[chuckbert]

Britain’s going to continue to be an unhappy divided place as long as people blame and vilify the poor and needy as scroungers, while readily accepting that the rich just “do what the rich do”.
It astounds me how effective this populist magic bullshit is, that intelligent people are accepting of smaller numbers of people looting the economy. We went through major voting reforms in the 19th and 20th centuries to ensure everyone has representation, and who do they vote for? The current equivalents of the landed gentry and barons of industry who were selfishly screwing everyone back then.

It’s as sad as the US poor railing against “socialised healthcare” - bewildering.

 

[chuckbert]

I feel like quoting John Lydon.

I’m trying to work out which quote!
“Submission. Down down down you’re dragging me down”?
“I am an antiChrist” ?
“Anger is an energy” ?

 

[QR]

I’m trying to work out which quote!
“Submission. Down down down you’re dragging me down”?
“I am an antiChrist” ?
“Anger is an energy” ?

"Every feel like you've been cheated"

 

[QR]

Britain’s going to continue to be an unhappy divided place as long as people blame and vilify the poor and needy as scroungers, while readily accepting that the rich just “do what the rich do”.
It astounds me how effective this populist magic bullshit is, that intelligent people are accepting of smaller numbers of people looting the economy. We went through major voting reforms in the 19th and 20th centuries to ensure everyone has representation, and who do they vote for? The current equivalents of the landed gentry and barons of industry who were selfishly screwing everyone back then.

It’s as sad as the US poor railing against “socialised healthcare” - bewildering.

Absolutely great post.

 

[bashamwonderland]

Britain’s going to continue to be an unhappy divided place as long as people blame and vilify the poor and needy as scroungers, while readily accepting that the rich just “do what the rich do”.
It astounds me how effective this populist magic bullshit is, that intelligent people are accepting of smaller numbers of people looting the economy. We went through major voting reforms in the 19th and 20th centuries to ensure everyone has representation, and who do they vote for? The current equivalents of the landed gentry and barons of industry who were selfishly screwing everyone back then.

It’s as sad as the US poor railing against “socialised healthcare” - bewildering.

Labour was in power in the late 90s and throughout the 00s. Why were tax loopholes and creative accounting not outlawed then? Why does Labour = tax equality and Tory = theiving bastards?? That's such a reductionist, low resolution of the world. Give most voters the choice and they would vote for tighter and fairer tax regulations.

You also seem to overlook that UK tax regulation is not on the top of voter priority lists.

 

[chuckbert]

Why does Labour = tax equality and Tory = theiving bastards?? That's such a reductionist, low resolution of the world

Those are your words not mine. I didn’t mention any parties.

You also seem to overlook that UK tax regulation is not on the top of voter priority lists.

No I don’t. I bemoan the fact that tax regulation is not on the top of voter priority.

 

[QR]

The problem is in your head. Where did chuckbert mention Labour?

 

[OUFCGav]

I know he is being hypocritical by pushing brexit and moving to Europe formtax reasons

Of course tax reasons (well tax avoidance reasons) was one of the main reasons he wanted Brexit. EU tax avoidance laws would have stopped his businesses charging each other excessive rates of interest on money 'loaned' to each other (amongst other things).

 

[bashamwonderland]

Those are your words not mine. I didn’t mention any parties.


No I don’t. I bemoan the fact that tax regulation is not on the top of voter priority.

Well you said voters vote for the equivalent of the landed gentry or whatever, which appears to be a reference to Tories?? Correct me if I'm wrong. Who can we vote for to get tax right??

 

[QR]

Well you said voters vote for the equivalent of the landed gentry or whatever, which appears to be a reference to Tories?? Correct me if I'm wrong. Who can we vote for to get tax right??

We can't. No party is going to get it just right. But the issue for me as raised by chuckbert is the blind loyalty to whatever the Tories do. Why can't many Tory supporters on here admit when they get it wrong instead of helping the government polish turds?

Many on here with left tendencies have been scathing of Labour under Corbyn. He was a crap leader, couldn't put a strategy together to save his life and was incredibly blinkered when it suited him. He is a probably a 'nice bloke' but you need a lot more than that to lead a political party. Blair was far too right of centre for my liking and I ain't going to argue the case for quite a number of his actions. (from what I can remember of him I personally think John Smith may have been the best PM Labour never had. But we'll never know.)

You would have a lot more credibility if you acknowledged what's staring you in the face once in a while. You're not on bloody Question Time.

 

[bazzer9461]

We can't. No party is going to get it just right. But the issue for me as raised by chuckbert is the blind loyalty to whatever the Tories do. Why can't many Tory supporters on here admit when they get it wrong instead of helping the government polish turds?

Many on here with left tendencies have been scathing of Labour under Corbyn. He was a crap leader, couldn't put a strategy together to save his life and was incredibly blinkered when it suited him. He is a probably a 'nice bloke' but you need a lot more than that to lead a political party. Blair was far too right of centre for my liking and I ain't going to argue the case for quite a number of his actions. (from what I can remember of him I personally think John Smith may have been the best PM Labour never had. But we'll never know.)

You would have a lot more credibility if you acknowledged what's staring you in the face once in a while. You're not on bloody Question Time.

The Tories wanted Brexit and yes I do as well that is there mandate and they’re sticking to it. Regarding Coronavirus yes I agree mistakes have been made and with the Labour Party and Layla Moran giving scathing attacks on the Tories because of errors I would say they are government bashing because if they’re honest they know if they had been in government they too would have been bashed it’s ok saying in hindsight what they would do now they know the facts and issues with the Coronavirus, but I’m confident it f they had been in power they would have had the same issues.
Been a Tory all my voting career 40 years but I agree John Smith would have made a heel of a good leader.

 

[chuckbert]

I'm reading Football Against the Enemy by Simon Kuper to my son at the moment, and in the Old Firm chapter he made an interesting point which reminds me of this thread. He talks about how UK football fans are unlike any other fans in the way they identify as fans, worry about every detail of history, and compare themselves to the opposition fans. He then goes on to say how this isn't just restricted to football, but is there in things like politics. The parties are like teams, with a competitive history, and constant partisan comparisons being made in parliament.

In answer to @bashamwonderland, the vote that most clearly showed the acceptance of many people to firmly fix control of the economy to the wealthy was the brexit vote. It might not be what they thought they were voting for, but that's the power of the populist magic bullshit.

 

[QR]

The Tories wanted Brexit

Not true. Many didn't.

hindsight

Go back on the Covid-19 thread. In many instances it's not hindsight.

 

[bashamwonderland]

We can't. No party is going to get it just right. But the issue for me as raised by chuckbert is the blind loyalty to whatever the Tories do. Why can't many Tory supporters on here admit when they get it wrong instead of helping the government polish turds?

Many on here with left tendencies have been scathing of Labour under Corbyn. He was a crap leader, couldn't put a strategy together to save his life and was incredibly blinkered when it suited him. He is a probably a 'nice bloke' but you need a lot more than that to lead a political party. Blair was far too right of centre for my liking and I ain't going to argue the case for quite a number of his actions. (from what I can remember of him I personally think John Smith may have been the best PM Labour never had. But we'll never know.)

You would have a lot more credibility if you acknowledged what's staring you in the face once in a while. You're not on bloody Question Time.

Of everyone on the political threads you and Yellow taxi are probably least qualified to challenge others for being unyielding in their views.

I don't see much evidence for blind acceptance of what the Tories have done. This week I set out my own criticism of the government's response to Covid and that's all still there for you to read on that thread. The polls don't show a blind acceptance of what the Tories are doing.

On what basis are you saying that conservative voters don't question what the government is doing??

 

[bashamwonderland]

I'm reading Football Against the Enemy by Simon Kuper to my son at the moment, and in the Old Firm chapter he made an interesting point which reminds me of this thread. He talks about how UK football fans are unlike any other fans in the way they identify as fans, worry about every detail of history, and compare themselves to the opposition fans. He then goes on to say how this isn't just restricted to football, but is there in things like politics. The parties are like teams, with a competitive history, and constant partisan comparisons being made in parliament.

In answer to @bashamwonderland, the vote that most clearly showed the acceptance of many people to firmly fix control of the economy to the wealthy was the brexit vote. It might not be what they thought they were voting for, but that's the power of the populist magic bullshit.

Was the economy not controlled by the wealthy when we were in the EU then? Had we not spent half a century "in Europe" before Brexit? What makes you think Brexit will be any worse that what we were already experiencing?

The difference is there is now nowhere to hide for politicians. No blaming it on the EU. And if deceit, lying and corruption make themsleves known, the electorate can remove the people at the very top. We've added a layer of transparency to proceedings.

 

[QR]

Of everyone on the political threads you and Yellow taxi are probably least qualified to challenge others for being unyielding in their views.

I don't see much evidence for blind acceptance of what the Tories have done. This week I set out my own criticism of the government's response to Covid and that's all still there for you to read on that thread. The polls don't show a blind acceptance of what the Tories are doing.

On what basis are you saying that conservative voters don't question what the government is doing??

There is an enormous difference between being unyielding in one's views and agreeing with everything a party trots out. I've been 'unyielding' in my criticism of Corbyn's leadership because it was 'unyieldingly' poor.


'I don't see much evidence for blind acceptance of what the Tories have done.' you are kidding me ????

 

[chuckbert]

Was the economy not controlled by the wealthy when we were in the EU then? Had we not spent half a century "in Europe" before Brexit? What makes you think Brexit will be any worse that what we were already experiencing?

The difference is there is now nowhere to hide for politicians. No blaming it on the EU. And if deceit, lying and corruption make themsleves known, the electorate can remove the people at the very top. We've added a layer of transparency to proceedings.

How can things be worse? All of the things you are now seeing: the rich people who bankrolled the leave campaign picking up their pay-off and taking it overseas, tax-avoiders milking tax payouts, the most duplicitous PM the country has had in living memory (apart from Bliar's hideous Iraq war episode). I have no confidence that the people can remove deceitful liars in a more effective way than when they are held to account by a diverse European political framework. It's the same reason the UK union is a valuable because it maintains diversity and moderation of values. I absolutely disagree that transparency has been added. That's an illusion.

 

[SteMerritt]

I don't see much evidence for blind acceptance of what the Tories have done.

Have you blocked posts from @Essexyellows ? ?

 

[werthersoriginal]

Britain’s going to continue to be an unhappy divided place as long as people blame and vilify the poor and needy as scroungers, while readily accepting that the rich just “do what the rich do”.
It astounds me how effective this populist magic bullshit is, that intelligent people are accepting of smaller numbers of people looting the economy. We went through major voting reforms in the 19th and 20th centuries to ensure everyone has representation, and who do they vote for? The current equivalents of the landed gentry and barons of industry who were selfishly screwing everyone back then.

It’s as sad as the US poor railing against “socialised healthcare” - bewildering.

The Tories and Trump have done an extraordinary job in convincing a lot of ordinary people that their enemies, and those responsible for their current troubles, are other ordinary people rather than elitist plutocrats such as themselves and the shadowy corporations and hedge funds that back them.