General Club Finances 2023

[captainox]

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[Carpy]

The land isn’t a protection aid unless it’s leveraged properly. If the stadium built on said land is put around the club’s neck financially without sufficient protections then that’s pretty much that - the council keeping the land is only a positive if they get the terms and conditions bang on. For example, it needs to stipulate that Oxford United (or any associated Phoenix club) must be allowed to play at the stadium in order for it to be allowed to function, not merely that football must be played there. Two very different things. I’ve heard a number of people including Grant Ferguson in recent weeks talk about this.

“Football”. “Football”. “Football”. Never yet “Oxford United”. That’s the key. That’s what needs to be said. This football club.

I don’t disagree with this.

I’m also pretty relieved that no “markets” are going to lend a club with next to no assets £150m for a stadium project, if it transpires that the owners loan the club a significant portion of that cash (rather than putting it into a completely separate stadium co) then I’ll be worried, but I can’t see that getting past the more connected fans of our club

 

[tonyw]

Uh, that wouldn’t be ‘going for it’. The trouble is that although as you say we are overspending I don’t really feel we’re actually ‘going for it’ - just spending a lot in a fairly random way. Tbh I wouldn’t mind so much if we did as you suggest, if it would make a difference- but we’d still be in debt and would have less chance of going up and making any money back.

Lots of truth in that. We've been overspending and doing it badly!

Let's also not delude ourselves that getting up to the Championship fixes all these financial issues. I believe you can look forward to about £7m in additional revenues, plus additional crowds of course, at that level. But that is typically more than offset by the massively higher wages you have to pay at that level to compete.

Only Premier League money can get you out of the hole we're currently digging.

 

[Osei Yaw]

Complain, protest, write to the club, even argue on here in favour of financial austerity more often (we know people at the club read this forum).

But we don't do it. We're constantly "We need another striker" here, or "We need another CDM" there. We're consistently praising the club when they go out and spend money, and putting pressure on them to do so when they're not.

And I'm not trying to say that it's an Oxford thing - all fanbases do it.

But let's not pretend that we haven't cheered all the overspending that's been going on over the past few years - because we have. Go have a read of the Murphy/Wildschut/Goodwin/Findlay etc. etc. signing threads if you have any doubts.

The one thing I can't stand is the intellectual dishonesty of fans like Reading's, who cheered like crazy for years when they were overspending hideously, and are now all "Yongge is the devil, we've been betrayed" tennis ball protests and the like. Let's not be like them. Now we are the ones overspending hideously. Either we need to start protesting that spending and advocating for us being more frugal in the summer or we need to own it. Accept that all our chips are in the middle, and that this ride ends with a new stadium and higher division football or it ends with AFC Oxford, and there's probably nothing in between.

I agree with a few of the points you make (especially how we need to be better than Reading). But I would say there are quite a few on here who are calling for more professional recruitment and spending our money more economically.

 

[holdsteady]

Complain, protest, write to the club, even argue on here in favour of financial austerity more often (we know people at the club read this forum).

But we don't do it. We're constantly "We need another striker" here, or "We need another CDM" there. We're consistently praising the club when they go out and spend money, and putting pressure on them to do so when they're not.

And I'm not trying to say that it's an Oxford thing - all fanbases do it.

But let's not pretend that we haven't cheered all the overspending that's been going on over the past few years - because we have. Go have a read of the Murphy/Wildschut/Goodwin/Findlay etc. etc. signing threads if you have any doubts.

The one thing I can't stand is the intellectual dishonesty of fans like Reading's, who cheered like crazy for years when they were overspending hideously, and are now all "Yongge is the devil, we've been betrayed" tennis ball protests and the like. Let's not be like them. Now we are the ones overspending hideously. Either we need to start protesting that spending and advocating for us being more frugal in the summer or we need to own it. Accept that all our chips are in the middle, and that this ride ends with a new stadium and higher division football or it ends with AFC Oxford, and there's probably nothing in between.

When you are owned by billionaires from the other side of the world are they really going to listen? We are passengers on the ride, the only decision we get to make is whether we are on or off the rollercoaster, that’s it.

I said ages ago that this was s**t or bust, that this could well end with up with OUFC not existing, but that has been hanging over us all my supporting life.

People are getting jumpy because the scale of the debt but we have been in debt and without a ground for nearly 20 years now, OUFC has only been able to run because of owners putting money in for far longer than that, nothing has changed but the number of zeros involved, we have always been on the precipice.

 

[Paul Cannell]

Very true. Maybe that us why they seem to keep going despite the large losses?

You've already answered that question in a subsequent post We don't know.

Maybe nobody knows. The only relevant thing I think 'we' do know is that Thohir and Bakrie can brush off a 100m loss like dandruff off a collar.

2 theories, I'm sure someone will think of other plausible ones.

They might realise a profit if they get high championship or premiership and offload the club to some fool.

It's political. Sukarno's colonial Indonesia and family business.

 

[bazzer9461]

This is why they didn't want to answer my question at the recent Fans Forum.

Are we really expected to believe that the Chairman and CEO did not know, only three short weeks ago, that we had lost over £6m???!!! It's why I kept pushing the point on the night.

A couple of other points to note are as follows. We now publish a shortened version of the accounts, with none of the more interesting information available, and there is 10/12 pages less information than most of our contemporaries, and no Directors' Report, which usually explains the rationale behind the numbers. At the moment the £6m is sitting on the accounts as debt, not equity, which was another point of mine that they didn't want to answer at the Fans Forum.

As I've mentioned the Fans Forum, it's worth relating that I sent Tim Williams an email the following day, as a bit of an olive branch, saying that I hadn't intended things to become as adversarial as they did. Three weeks later and I haven't had as much as an acknowledgement from him. That together with the new, slimmed down, public accounts reminds me of the great Jim Royle quote, "communication my a**e"!

Yes I did think the chuckle brothers looked a bit hot an bothered especially when TW kept on trying to convince you that he didn’t know.

 

[unification]

I agree with a few of the points you make (especially how we need to be better than Reading). But I would say there are quite a few on here who are calling for more professional recruitment and spending our money more economically.

Yep. That was the point I would make.

The callers into Rad Ox who ask for a change of manager every three weeks are the sort who are entirely results oriented. If we win, they don’t care how we got there. If we lose, it’s always the manager’s fault and we need to spend our way out of it.

There are a myriad of views between those people and the types who the have the know how to scrutinise a set of accounts. The fans’ forum illustrated that a lot of people know a fair amount about business and could take TW and co to task.

There’s certainly no naivety on here. I now understand how the stadium will be funded in more detail but still question how the return will occur. I’m not shocked we’ve recorded a loss but am aggrieved that we’ve binned the model that was preventing such big losses (the model was more or less switched off during the last days of KR and those that have come through won’t be sold for anywhere near the figures Atkinson, Dickie and McNally went for).

OxVox does bring all this up and puts pressure on. But if the top brass listen but chose to do something else, there’s not a lot we can do unless we want to protest. We’re not there yet.

 

[Paul Cannell]

There’s certainly no naivety on here.

I'm not so sure.

I’m not shocked we’ve recorded a loss but am aggrieved that we’ve binned the model that was preventing such big losses (the model was more or less switched off during the last days of KR and those that have come through won’t be sold for anywhere near the figures Atkinson, Dickie and McNally went for).

It goes back to oversight. 2 brothers farting about while the acting manager took a 2 year holiday from trying. Because that model is no longer pertinent.

 

[Paul Cannell]

Not much any of us can do about it though is there?

There's one thing.

 

[uptheus]

And I assume the reason that they did this was not benevolence, but the only way we could fit under League One's SCMP and therefore avoid a transfer embargo.

Strongly implies that we're running a wage bill for our playing staff that is £2m above what is allowed. On top of which, we're obviously paying transfer fees, loan fees, paying off managers and paying for them as well.

Maybe time for us to stop pointing fingers and laughing at Reading. Because we're headed down the same path, and if Bakrie ever gets bored like Yongge, we're equally ****ed.

Totally agree, and we should know better than a lot of fans not to point fingers and laugh at other fans/clubs plights, especially having lived through the pre Kassam, during, post Kassam and now escapades.

 

[bazzer9461]

The stadium is a separate issue - and frankly, it has the potential to make all this other discussion irrelevant. If £100m+ of debt is going on the club's books to pay for that, then whether we lost £3m or £6m this past season is kind of lost in the noise.

And yes, I would 100% be in favour of a proper salary cap that forces every club to trade within their means. We would have a much smaller budget now (both in real terms, and comparative to our peers) though if we did. We would have to over-perform to get in the promotion race.


But let's be honest with ourselves in the mean time. We've been massively overspending. It's been blatantly obvious to anyone who knows anything about football finance that we've been massively overspending. And noone has been complaining. I saw tons of posts after we signed Goodwin about how we needed one more top striker, because you needed three quality options at this level.


Let me put it another way - we could probably reduce this deficit by £5m in 2024/25 if we a) released Browne, Henry, Murphy, McGuane & Edwards, b) sold Tyler and Cam, and c) replaced them all with bog standard lower league pros. You could argue that it's the financially prudent thing to do whilst we wait for the stadium to get the go ahead. Wanna speculate on what the reaction would be around these parts if we did that!?!

Totally agree

 

[holdsteady]

There's one thing.

What’s that then?

 

[uptheus]

The stadium is a separate issue - and frankly, it has the potential to make all this other discussion irrelevant. If £100m+ of debt is going on the club's books to pay for that, then whether we lost £3m or £6m this past season is kind of lost in the noise.

And yes, I would 100% be in favour of a proper salary cap that forces every club to trade within their means. We would have a much smaller budget now (both in real terms, and comparative to our peers) though if we did. We would have to over-perform to get in the promotion race.


But let's be honest with ourselves in the mean time. We've been massively overspending. It's been blatantly obvious to anyone who knows anything about football finance that we've been massively overspending. And noone has been complaining. I saw tons of posts after we signed Goodwin about how we needed one more top striker, because you needed three quality options at this level.


Let me put it another way - we could probably reduce this deficit by £5m in 2024/25 if we a) released Browne, Henry, Murphy, McGuane & Edwards, b) sold Tyler and Cam, and c) replaced them all with bog standard lower league pros. You could argue that it's the financially prudent thing to do whilst we wait for the stadium to get the go ahead. Wanna speculate on what the reaction would be around these parts if we did that!?!

We haven’t managed or spent smart I’d say.

 

[Essexyellows]

£17k a day?!

It's Tim's spreadsheets that I feel sorry for.

Its all just numbers on spreadsheets until it gets called in, and I should think these boys think of £6 million like we do a couple of grand.

While you have someone who can fund the debt and who isn`t willing to pull the plug then all is good.

Promotion would nullify a chunk and reaching the Trough of Greed would make £6 million look like loose change.

 

[MarkG]

Its all just numbers on spreadsheets until it gets called in, and I should think these boys think of £6 million like we do a couple of grand.

While you have someone who can fund the debt and who isn`t willing to pull the plug then all is good.

Promotion would nullify a chunk and reaching the Trough of Greed would make £6 million lt ook like loose change.

I'm not sure that reaching the trough of greed would sort things either.
From what I've read only the relegated clubs from the Championship don't lose millions because they don't bust the wage bill.
Similarly Mike Ashley was one of the few owners in the EPL not to overspend.
the other clubs who went from Championship to EPL spent a fortune to get there, a fortune to try and stay there,and get relegated anyway and are stuck with huge wage costs.

 

[Essexyellows]

I'm not sure that reaching the trough of greed would sort things either.
From what I've read only the relegated clubs from the Championship don't lose millions because they don't bust the wage bill.
Similarly Mike Ashley was one of the few owners in the EPL not to overspend.
the other clubs who went from Championship to EPL spent a fortune to get there, a fortune to try and stay there,and get relegated anyway and are stuck with huge wage costs.

Bournemouth, Brentford and Luton ? Not looked at the nitty gritty but they seem to have been (relatively) sensible?

"Wannabe" big clubs like Leicester, Forest et al seem to go sh** or bust and even break the rules to do so.

 

[Steve Gilbert]

Now I’m not that clued up on this so maybe someone like @MarkG or @Colin B could explain…
How can we lose this much money but still meet EFL FFP rules?

 

[warksox]

The land isn’t a protection aid unless it’s leveraged properly. If the stadium built on said land is put around the club’s neck financially without sufficient protections then that’s pretty much that - the council keeping the land is only a positive if they get the terms and conditions bang on. For example, it needs to stipulate that Oxford United (or any associated Phoenix club) must be allowed to play at the stadium in order for it to be allowed to function, not merely that football must be played there. Two very different things. I’ve heard a number of people including Grant Ferguson in recent weeks talk about this.

“Football”. “Football”. “Football”. Never yet “Oxford United”. That’s the key. That’s what needs to be said. This football club.

This is what Grant Ferguson said in an interview with Jerome Sale on the Dub on 1st March:
"The club (OUFC) will always have an unambiguous right to play at the stadium and call it home"
"An outright, unimpeached right to use 24/7"
Only words of course but at least he said it. If it can be put into a legal framework, we will have a much stronger safeguard than the AoCV covenant provides at the Kassam which is limited to 'football' being played there.

 

[Osleroad]

Looking at the pure numbers with Ipswich Town having sold 40% share for £100 odd million as Price of Football pointed out today someone thinks that English football is investible. What or who it then sells for may be a moot point but with the amount of US investors taking a punt then who knows.

 

[Twiggy85]

When you are owned by billionaires from the other side of the world are they really going to listen? We are passengers on the ride, the only decision we get to make is whether we are on or off the rollercoaster, that’s it.

I said ages ago that this was s**t or bust, that this could well end with up with OUFC not existing, but that has been hanging over us all my supporting life.

People are getting jumpy because the scale of the debt but we have been in debt and without a ground for nearly 20 years now, OUFC has only been able to run because of owners putting money in for far longer than that, nothing has changed but the number of zeros involved, we have always been on the precipice.

Agree that we have always been on a precipice ever since the club got sold separate from the stadium and to be honest it seems to me a minor miracle we have lasted 20 yrs.

However as you say the number of zeros is getting bigger and if these owners lose interest I can’t see anyone being able/willing to take the club on. There has always been someone in the past but the size of debt I think means that we are tied to these owners for good or ill. As others have said we are in no position to laugh at reading.