Sport Pakistan Test Series

[tonyw]

That is some performance from Ahmed to take five wickets on debut against Pakistan.

Gives Stokes & McCullum an interesting selection dilemma now! We're not going to need two spinners for our next three games (two in NZ, then Ireland) and probably not for any of the Ashes Tests. So is it experienced-but-limited or talented-but-raw for the biggest stage in Test cricket?

Guess it will come down to what they think about the lad's mental toughness.

 

[Foley]

That is some performance from Ahmed to take five wickets on debut against Pakistan.

Gives Stokes & McCullum an interesting selection dilemma now! We're not going to need two spinners for our next three games (two in NZ, then Ireland) and probably not for any of the Ashes Tests. So is it experienced-but-limited or talented-but-raw for the biggest stage in Test cricket?

Guess it will come down to what they think about the lad's mental toughness.

It has been an incredible start for him.
I was reading that one of the reasons they picked him in the squad, was due to his mental toughness.
They obviously thought he was ready to play a Test.
I suspect that Leach will play in the next few Tests (Stokes has really backed him and he has done well under Stokes) , but I am sure that they will try and give Ahmed chances.
Oh and although he has hardly shown it here Ahmed's batting is supposed to be pretty good so that is a bonus!

 

[Marked Ox]

That is some performance from Ahmed to take five wickets on debut against Pakistan.

Gives Stokes & McCullum an interesting selection dilemma now! We're not going to need two spinners for our next three games (two in NZ, then Ireland) and probably not for any of the Ashes Tests. So is it experienced-but-limited or talented-but-raw for the biggest stage in Test cricket?

Guess it will come down to what they think about the lad's mental toughness.

Michael Atherton was talking about how the situation regarding selection for England has gone a bit nuts in the commentary. We've gone from struggling for options across the board to potentially leaving out performing well batsmen/bowlers and wicket keepers at the same time.

 

[Big Ron]

That is some performance from Ahmed to take five wickets on debut against Pakistan.

Gives Stokes & McCullum an interesting selection dilemma now! We're not going to need two spinners for our next three games (two in NZ, then Ireland) and probably not for any of the Ashes Tests. So is it experienced-but-limited or talented-but-raw for the biggest stage in Test cricket?

Guess it will come down to what they think about the lad's mental toughness.

I don't think it's a dilemma - it will horses for courses as regards the bowlers, particularly with changing conditions. What it does is do is enable Leach to be rested when necessary and ensure we go to India with more than one option, other than Root.

It will probably more interesting for the batting line-up when Bairstow comes back.

Decent batsman he is, it could also make Foakes expendable at times, with Pope, Duckett and Bairstow also able to cover at keeper.

 

[tonyw]

I suspect that Leach will play in the next few Tests (Stokes has really backed him and he has done well under Stokes) , but I am sure that they will try and give Ahmed chances.

I don't think it's a dilemma - it will horses for courses as regards the bowlers, particularly with changing conditions. What it does is do is enable Leach to be rested when necessary and ensure we go to India with more than one option, other than Root.

So I'm sure both Leach and Ahmed will go to India - but that's not until January 2024, more than a year away.

Before then, we have two Tests in New Zealand (with their pitches, we might not even play one spinner!) then six Tests at home (one against Ireland, five against the Aussies), all of which are finished before the end of July so that they can then prep for the World Cup in October. There's almost zero chance that we'll need two spinners for any of those games.

We've talked at length about how England have only had one decent spinner in the past forty years. Are we really going to see an 18-year old take 5/48 on debut in Pakistan, and then say "Cheers for that, Rehan, we'll see you in 2024!"?


[as you can clearly see, my stance has changed 180 degrees in the past week. I thought that throwing Ahmed in to bowl against Babar & co. was asking for a clobbering. Now that he's shined, I'm overexcited by the potential!]

 

[Foley]

So I'm sure both Leach and Ahmed will go to India - but that's not until January 2024, more than a year away.

Before then, we have two Tests in New Zealand (with their pitches, we might not even play one spinner!) then six Tests at home (one against Ireland, five against the Aussies), all of which are finished before the end of July so that they can then prep for the World Cup in October. There's almost zero chance that we'll need two spinners for any of those games.

We've talked at length about how England have only had one decent spinner in the past forty years. Are we really going to see an 18-year old take 5/48 on debut in Pakistan, and then say "Cheers for that, Rehan, we'll see you in 2024!"?


[as you can clearly see, my stance has changed 180 degrees in the past week. I thought that throwing Ahmed in to bowl against Babar & co. was asking for a clobbering. Now that he's shined, I'm overexcited by the potential!]

I would love to see Ahmed included as England's number 1 spinner. I just think that Stokes will keep Leach as number 1, but play Ahmed at times on a horses for courses basis

Mind you, the way Stokes has captained so far including playing Ahmed in this test maybe he will go for it

 

[IsleofWightYellow]

It would be a brave call to go ‘right, Ahmed is our spinner for the next ten years or so, so let’s play him (unless unplayably out of form)’ but Stokes isn’t afraid to make a brave call or two…

When Archer and Woakes are back as well that Test side is suddenly very, very hard to get in to.

 

[Marked Ox]

It would be a brave call to go ‘right, Ahmed is our spinner for the next ten years or so, so let’s play him (unless unplayably out of form)’ but Stokes isn’t afraid to make a brave call or two…

When Archer and Woakes are back as well that Test side is suddenly very, very hard to get in to.

Not sure Woakes gets in ahead of others tbh unless Jimmy Anderson is out. Ollie Robinson has really pushed his case on this tour.

 

[MJB]

Not sure Woakes gets in ahead of others tbh unless Jimmy Anderson is out. Ollie Robinson has really pushed his case on this tour.

Plus we really do need those options given the relative fitness of Wood, Archer and Robinson alongside the need to manage Broad and Anderson’s work loads.

 

[IsleofWightYellow]

Not sure Woakes gets in ahead of others tbh unless Jimmy Anderson is out. Ollie Robinson has really pushed his case on this tour.

Agreed although Woakes is almost unplayable at times in English conditions and can bat pretty handily as well…

 

[Big Ron]

So I'm sure both Leach and Ahmed will go to India - but that's not until January 2024, more than a year away.

Before then, we have two Tests in New Zealand (with their pitches, we might not even play one spinner!) then six Tests at home (one against Ireland, five against the Aussies), all of which are finished before the end of July so that they can then prep for the World Cup in October. There's almost zero chance that we'll need two spinners for any of those games.

We've talked at length about how England have only had one decent spinner in the past forty years. Are we really going to see an 18-year old take 5/48 on debut in Pakistan, and then say "Cheers for that, Rehan, we'll see you in 2024!"?


[as you can clearly see, my stance has changed 180 degrees in the past week. I thought that throwing Ahmed in to bowl against Babar & co. was asking for a clobbering. Now that he's shined, I'm overexcited by the potential!]

I don't think anyone said anything about pushing Rehan aside until 2024 - the consensus seems to be that he will play but not every test and will be managed, depending on conditions, form, team needs and rotation. Amazingly, Leach is the top test wicket taker of 2022 with 46 , albeit he has played more tests than any bowler bar Ben Stokes and is averaging nearly 40. Rabada is 1 wicket behind from 6 less tests, averaging 20 and Lyon 3 behind from 4 less, averaging 30.

Better be careful Tony, you might find yourself getting enthusiastic about this different approach to Test cricket!

 

[Marked Ox]

Plus we really do need those options given the relative fitness of Wood, Archer and Robinson alongside the need to manage Broad and Anderson’s work loads.

Agreed. Having them all allows rotation which will be necessary for Archer and Wood. The bonus with Robinson is that he has worked hard on his fitness and core so is stronger hopefully reducing injuries.

 

[Big Ron]

Agreed. Having them all allows rotation which will be necessary for Archer and Wood. The bonus with Robinson is that he has worked hard on his fitness and core so is stronger hopefully reducing injuries.

Robinson is key to our plans, particularly in England - he bowls a consistent length and is capable of holding down an end, as well as bowling wicket taking balls, while (as MJB says) we manage the workload of Wood, Broad, Anderson and (hopefully) Archer.

Potts also didn't do himself any harm last summer and the likes of Brydon Carse are also worth watching.

Interesting listening to Vic Marks on TMS yesterday where he said that Rehan pushed the ball through reasonably quickly, particularly the googly, whereas Parkinson is too slow to test cricket.

 

[tonyw]

I don't think anyone said anything about pushing Rehan aside until 2024 - the consensus seems to be that he will play but not every test and will be managed, depending on conditions, form, team needs and rotation. Amazingly, Leach is the top test wicket taker of 2022 with 46 , albeit he has played more tests than any bowler bar Ben Stokes and is averaging nearly 40. Rabada is 1 wicket behind from 6 less tests, averaging 20 and Lyon 3 behind from 4 less, averaging 30.

Better be careful Tony, you might find yourself getting enthusiastic about this different approach to Test cricket!

Buuuuuut.....I can already give you a good estimate of what the conditions will be in New Zealand and in England in June/July, and for a spinner it's not going to be helpful. At best a flat track, at worst a greentop where they might never get a bowl. They're not going to see a turning wicket until they get to India in 2024.....in Tests at least.

Spinners don't need to be rotated. In fact, there's evidence that they do better when they play regularly and can get into a rhythm.

Team need for this next year will always be one spinner. You could argue that you could view the spinner role as either primarily defensive (so Leach) or attacking (so Ahmed)......but this is Bazball we're talking about, so everything gets turned up to eleven at all times.

And as for form - the Test schedule is so congested that no England player is going to have a chance to play much, if any County Cricket.


I think all this 'horses for courses' discussion around the spinners is just ducking the question. Because they're going to have to pick either Leach or Ahmed for the two Tests in New Zealand, and then the Ashes, based on very little more information than they have now.
Good article on this in Wisden, by the way - https://wisden.com/series-stories/p...underlines-his-value-long-will-enough-england


(and my distate for scoring at six runs an over in the first innings of a Test match doesn't mean I'm not enthusiastic about the bowling attack! )

 

[Big Ron]

Buuuuuut.....I can already give you a good estimate of what the conditions will be in New Zealand and in England in June/July, and for a spinner it's not going to be helpful. At best a flat track, at worst a greentop where they might never get a bowl. They're not going to see a turning wicket until they get to India in 2024.....in Tests at least.

Spinners don't need to be rotated. In fact, there's evidence that they do better when they play regularly and can get into a rhythm.

Team need for this next year will always be one spinner. You could argue that you could view the spinner role as either primarily defensive (so Leach) or attacking (so Ahmed)......but this is Bazball we're talking about, so everything gets turned up to eleven at all times.

And as for form - the Test schedule is so congested that no England player is going to have a chance to play much, if any County Cricket.


I think all this 'horses for courses' discussion around the spinners is just ducking the question. Because they're going to have to pick either Leach or Ahmed for the two Tests in New Zealand, and then the Ashes, based on very little more information than they have now.
Good article on this in Wisden, by the way - https://wisden.com/series-stories/p...underlines-his-value-long-will-enough-england


(and my distate for scoring at six runs an over in the first innings of a Test match doesn't mean I'm not enthusiastic about the bowling attack! )

I'll consider myself put in my place and stick to watching the the games.

 

[Leysboy]

Brilliant test series for England, and great final test for Rehen Ahmed. Lots of potential, and needs coaching properly, and protecting. He’s going to be a gem for us. Especially in the sub continent. Less long hops, and more consistent length, and challenging the batsman more often than not.

I heard someone on Sky Sports saying Anil Kumble. It could have been Mark Butcher, now Kumble wasn’t a big turner of the ball, but got lots of wickets. If Ahmed can continue to beat the batsman outside of the bat on both sides then he will get loads of wickets. His leg break is good, and he’s got the googly, and the flipper that goes straight on.

I’m so excited, because it’s what we’ve needed for years, a proper wrist spinner.

Leach will continue to be the number one choice, and that’s probably right. I just don’t see him being able to block an end up, and apply pressure on the opposition stemming the flow of runs.

Root will also bowl more overs, and Ahmed will only be needed if we look to create spin friendly wickets, or when we head to India next tour.

All in all it’s been a very positive and aggressive performance by England, and McCullum and Stokes deserve a lot of credit.

Also like to add that it’s nice to be playing cricket in Pakistan again.

 

[tonyw]

I'll consider myself put in my place and stick to watching the the games.

That's exactly the opposite of my intent. I want everyone off the fence.

LEACH or AHMED!!!

 

[38yearsofpain]

Brilliant test series for England, and great final test for Rehen Ahmed. Lots of potential, and needs coaching properly, and protecting. He’s going to be a gem for us. Especially in the sub continent. Less long hops, and more consistent length, and challenging the batsman more often than not.

I heard someone on Sky Sports saying Anil Kumble. It could have been Mark Butcher, now Kumble wasn’t a big turner of the ball, but got lots of wickets. If Ahmed can continue to beat the batsman outside of the bat on both sides then he will get loads of wickets. His leg break is good, and he’s got the googly, and the flipper that goes straight on.

I’m so excited, because it’s what we’ve needed for years, a proper wrist spinner.

Leach will continue to be the number one choice, and that’s probably right. I just don’t see him being able to block an end up, and apply pressure on the opposition stemming the flow of runs.

Root will also bowl more overs, and Ahmed will only be needed if we look to create spin friendly wickets, or when we head to India next tour.

All in all it’s been a very positive and aggressive performance by England, and McCullum and Stokes deserve a lot of credit.

Also like to add that it’s nice to be playing cricket in Pakistan again.

Ahmed could be a very special talent, he has now played 6 first class multi day games, one being this test match. He already has a first class hundred with a strike rate of 72 so has the potential to be a world class all rounder. He already bowls a well disguised googly and time hopefully will develop the real subtlety that takes test wickets. The fact he might potentially bat 6 or 7 at worst means he will become an invaluable asset because not only will he be the wrist spinner that English cricket has craved for over 50 years but being able to bat means he won't have to be used exclusively on spin friendly wickets.

 

[Leysboy]

I