World Cup 10/12/22: Quarter Finals: England v France

[AbsoluteZero]

We lost to France the current world champions. But it is a weakened France who is missing a whole host of their better players. We were virtually at full strength will only marginal gains lost in the full back areas if James and Chilwell were fit. So on that basis if France get back to full strength we are a long way behind them still.

We had our foot on their throat when we scored the penalty, immediately after the restart we conceded a pathetic chance when our defence was totally asleep and from that point on we stopped going forward with pace and determination and it was as if the players were told to stay solid and defensively sound and our back line started on the 18 yard line rather than much higher up, we were playing the ball around in our own half, losing the ball on the half way line and inviting a higher press. This is Southgate all over. A more ruthless manager would have killed off the opponent by trying to win rather than trying not to lose. Somehow England always seem to have a hard luck story but you make your own luck. It was a great opportunity this year against an ageing Croatia, weakened France, surprise but not really that good Morocco, and one man team Argentina and they somehow managed to fall short again.

 

[Sarge]

in the cold (very cold!) light of the day after the night before.....( and post match frustrated disappointment having subsided)

England played well in a close game, albeit seemed to lack the final killer touch to edge it

couple of thoughts (easy after the game in retrospect- couldve/ should've !)

Attempting to nullify Mbappe probably contributed to England's slight lack of pace n punch going forward- more worried about Mbappe than playing the attacking football that maybe mayve won the game?

with Griezman- who was running the game for France- on a yellow card , I was surprised Grealish didn't go on as a sub, and 'target' him? - a few tackles on Grealish in totting up if nothing else, maybe would've seen a second yellow card? *

Both the use/application of VAR and the poor referee seeming to favour France - * perhaps that too wouldntve been given - like many other decisions

wonder if there's any truth in the rumour that the referee had himself down as number 3 for France , if the game had gone to penalties?

hey ho!

 

[Sarge]

 

[Leysboy]

We lost to France the current world champions. But it is a weakened France who is missing a whole host of their better players. We were virtually at full strength will only marginal gains lost in the full back areas if James and Chilwell were fit. So on that basis if France get back to full strength we are a long way behind them still.

We had our foot on their throat when we scored the penalty, immediately after the restart we conceded a pathetic chance when our defence was totally asleep and from that point on we stopped going forward with pace and determination and it was as if the players were told to stay solid and defensively sound and our back line started on the 18 yard line rather than much higher up, we were playing the ball around in our own half, losing the ball on the half way line and inviting a higher press. This is Southgate all over. A more ruthless manager would have killed off the opponent by trying to win rather than trying not to lose. Somehow England always seem to have a hard luck story but you make your own luck. It was a great opportunity this year against an ageing Croatia, weakened France, surprise but not really that good Morocco, and one man team Argentina and they somehow managed to fall short again.

If James and Chilwell were fit, Southgate would have still picked his favourites. It was severe fan pressure that he then started playing Foden instead of Mount.

 

[Scotchegg]

If James and Chilwell were fit, Southgate would have still picked his favourites. It was severe fan pressure that he then started playing Foden instead of Mount.

Do you just interchange Southgate and Robinson in your moaning?!

 

[Leysboy]

Do you just interchange Southgate and Robinson in your moaning?

I’m right. The first thing he did was bring his favourite Mount on, and took our most effective player off ie Saka.

 

[Osei Yaw]

Not really sure I buy into the whole 'crab football' thing about England last night. We were awarded 2 penalties, one from Saka darting across the box and another from a big diagonal into the box. We created a couple of decent opportunities from set pieces, as well as opportunities from good play down the right where Lloris had to make a decent one on one save from Kane and another very good save from Bellingham. It's not as if we were passing around the centre backs all night like Spain did in a couple of their games.

On another day with another ref, we would've got 1 of the 2 fouls from Upamecano. The first meaning France never score their first, the second meaning a good chance in a good area. It's not great to harp on about refs after the game, but the fact is that their first goal changes the game completely and there was a clear foul in the build up to it

Obviously we still had to do better to stop Tchouameni lining up the first, and the marking for Giroud's goal was poor, but France had 2 moments of quality and they rode their luck.

There are obviously improvements to be made but England did enough to win the game last night. Feels to me like if that match was played 3 times, you could quite easily get 3 different results.

Southgate still has work to do for how he manages things during games, I think. Italy were there for the taking in the final last year and Saka was outstanding last night and should have stayed on. If he can learn that side of things then I'd say there is a lot of promise for the next major tournament (if we can also get some better competition at centre back).

 

[Bath Yellow]

After Kane penalty miss, Airline Pilots were reporting sightings of a fast moving object over Qatar, round in shape, white in colour

 

[Scotchegg]

Saka was becoming less effective and was getting nothing from the ref. Mount came on and won the penalty that should have seen us through to extra time at least.

This same old rubbish about have favourites is best left in the playground!

 

[Scrongo]

Indeed. That’s why I added ‘by my reckoning’. The quality yesterday was a match befitting a semi final. It simply came one match earlier.

Seemingly the rest of the world (barring those who always wish England to lose) appeared to think we did well, ran the world champions close and can exit with our heads held high. Olivier Giroud was very complimentary of England.

Only in England are some quarters going after the manager.

Yep all I know it's a long time coming home..

 

[tonyw]

Once again a failure at a major tournament. They've got a long way to go to even think about, getting anywhere near the successful nations. Brazil, Germany, Italy, France, & Spain.Throw a few other countries into the mix as well. Mmmmmm yeah football's really coming home.

Here's a list of countries that, by my reckoning, have had bigger World Cup knockout wins in the past 56 years than England (i.e. they beat genuine World Cup contenders at some point in the knockout stages):

Brazil
Argentina
France
Italy
Spain
Portugal
Germany
Croatia
Belgium
Morocco
South Korea
Russia
Uruguay
Netherlands
Romania
Bulgaria
Yugoslavia

So it's not quite the list of twenty I was expecting, but it's almost there.

I think we, as a nation, are too willing to accept failure at these massive sporting tournaments.
"The boys did well, they just came up against a great side", "penalties are a lottery", "we got cheated" etc. etc.

But getting through the groups and then beating a mediocre side or two in the early knockout rounds before losing to the first decent side we come up against (as we seem to have done so often in my lifetime - with the only alternative being bombing out in the groups or qualifying) is not a great achievement. It just isn't.
I'm done with giving any praise or consolation to an England team that comes home without having won a winner-takes-all game against a actual World Cup challenger.

Which is not me saying we should definitely be canning Southgate, because he at least seems competent and there's not a ton of exciting alternatives. But he should be given a rocket and told that this performance - again - wasn't good enough; not a pat on the back.

 

[Scrongo]

Here's a list of countries that, by my reckoning, have had bigger World Cup knockout wins in the past 56 years than England (i.e. they beat genuine World Cup contenders at some point in the knockout stages):

Brazil
Argentina
France
Italy
Spain
Portugal
Germany
Croatia
Belgium
Morocco
South Korea
Russia
Uruguay
Netherlands
Romania
Bulgaria
Yugoslavia

So it's not quite the list of twenty I was expecting, but it's almost there.

I think we, as a nation, are too willing to accept failure at these massive sporting tournaments.
"The boys did well, they just came up against a great side", "penalties are a lottery", "we got cheated" etc. etc.

But getting through the groups and then beating a mediocre side or two in the early knockout rounds before losing to the first decent side we come up against (as we seem to have done so often in my lifetime - with the only alternative being bombing out in the groups or qualifying) is not a great achievement. It just isn't.
I'm done with giving any praise or consolation to an England team that comes home without having won a winner-takes-all game against a actual World Cup challenger.

Which is not me saying we should definitely be canning Southgate, because he at least seems competent and there's not a ton of exciting alternatives. But he should be given a rocket and told that this performance - again - wasn't good enough; not a pat on the back.

Says it all really..

 

[Scotchegg]

So on one hand we're saying that England historically are nothing special and have won nothing for nearly 60 years, and on the other we're moaning about England suffering a narrow and undeserved defeat to the current world champions?!

 

[Scrongo]

The statistics historically prove their nothing special. Yes & people are moaning, but not surprised..

 

[Mad Dog]

It was an average game, between two average sides, with one of the average sides being better in the first half, and the other average side being better in the 2nd half.

We have an average squad, full of average players, and an average manager. This World Cup has been an average World Cup, full of average teams, and average games.

The remainder of the tournament will be average as well, battled out amongst the remaining average sides.

My interest in the whole circus has been average, at best.

Now let's move on, and return to our average season, with our average team, and our average manager, and look forward to another average transfer window, where we will bring in average players, and...

 

[QR]

It was an average game, between two average sides, with one of the average sides being better in the first half, and the other average side being better in the 2nd half.

We have an average squad, full of average players, and an average manager. This World Cup has been an average World Cup, full of average teams, and average games.

The remainder of the tournament will be average as well, battled out amongst the remaining average sides.

My interest in the whole circus has been average, at best.

Now let's move on, and return to our average season, with our average team, and our average manager, and look forward to another average transfer window, where we will bring in average players, and...

Mean, medium or mode?

 

[tonyw]

So on one hand we're saying that England historically are nothing special and have won nothing for nearly 60 years, and on the other we're moaning about England suffering a narrow and undeserved defeat to the current world champions?!

No - we are (or at least I am) moaning about the fact that England are historically nothing special, and yet a large swathe of our fanbase seems to think this is OK as long as we lose to someone respectable every four years.

Let's be generous and say that it's not unreasonable for Brazil and Germany to do better than England. They both have long football histories; Brazil has a much larger population than us, and Germany has a slightly bigger population and is a bigger economy.

But Spain, Italy, France, Argentina? They all have about the same population as us, about the same wealth (apart from Argentina), similar football traditions and obsessions. Why have they been able to regularly win big matches on the world stage in the past fifty years whilst we have not? And why are more England fans not angry about it rather than making excuses ("France are a great team", "poor Harry Kane was under so much pressure", "the ref was terrible" etc. etc.)

(never mind Croatia - a comparably tiny country with a tiny economy that have managed to beat Germany and Brazil in World Cup QFs in the past thirty years).


We should be angry and calling this English World Cup what it is - another failure at the first difficult hurdle as it has been every tournament since 66, and not good enough.

 

[Paul Cannell]

Angry might be a bit strong. Maybe.

As a (I'm with Voltaire and deplore nations) national team we have no national style. Germany are about organisation and decent strikers, France in recent times about flair and pace, Argentina and Italy about strong defence with solid midfield, Uruguay resolute (and negative against their own interest) defense and fast counter attacking etc.

England has been since 1970 about slinging 11 players who look good in our leagues and letting them get on with it. Particularly our defence has been inept since Moore and (Jack) Charlton's day. There's no template for success thus no success. Just hyped great hopes.

 

[SteMerritt]

No - we are (or at least I am) moaning about the fact that England are historically nothing special, and yet a large swathe of our fanbase seems to think this is OK as long as we lose to someone respectable every four years.

Let's be generous and say that it's not unreasonable for Brazil and Germany to do better than England. They both have long football histories; Brazil has a much larger population than us, and Germany has a slightly bigger population and is a bigger economy.

But Spain, Italy, France, Argentina? They all have about the same population as us, about the same wealth (apart from Argentina), similar football traditions and obsessions. Why have they been able to regularly win big matches on the world stage in the past fifty years whilst we have not? And why are more England fans not angry about it rather than making excuses ("France are a great team", "poor Harry Kane was under so much pressure", "the ref was terrible" etc. etc.)

(never mind Croatia - a comparably tiny country with a tiny economy that have managed to beat Germany and Brazil in World Cup QFs in the past thirty years).


We should be angry and calling this English World Cup what it is - another failure at the first difficult hurdle as it has been every tournament since 66, and not good enough.

If populations won you World Cups, China and India would be cleaning up.

We should have won far more over the years because of the money in our game, and the passion we have for it. That we haven't is down to mismanagement from the football authorities and the clubs at the top level doing everything for themselves to the detriment of the game as a whole.

 

[QR]

If populations won you World Cups, China and India would be cleaning up.

We should have won far more over the years because of the money in our game, and the passion we have for it. That we haven't is down to mismanagement from the football authorities and the clubs at the top level doing everything for themselves to the detriment of the game as a whole.

And Croatia wouldn't even qualify!