General FA chairman resigns

None of the rest are sure what Marxism’s got to do with it either.
Postmodernist Marxism concerns itself with the breaking down of identity definitions and "social constructs" wherever they are found, as a wider critique of the supposed "patriarchy".

My point was that this tends to be the ideology of "the mob" which either forces people out of their jobs, or makes companies believe they have to force people out of their jobs for innocent mistakes. It's all part of cancel culture.
 
Talk of Gary Lineker taking over from Greg Clarke I hope not he would be all for the Premiership and wouldn’t give one iota towards the EFL.
 
I am somewhat confused about the whole racism against black people in English football. They make up 2% of the population but 30% of the last world cup squad. If as everyone seems to want quotas that reflect the population the biggest loser's will be black people as we add the Asian and white European groups into the squads (the two biggest minority groups). Would people object to quotas on playing sport therefore selecting only at tops 2 black players and adding 4 Asian heritage players into the English football squad? They are looking at quotas for managers why not players?
 

So "coloured" is offensive because of its historical use in the USA, but in South Africa, that hotbed of racial harmony, it is acceptable for describing people of mixed heritage.

Black is fine now whereas describing some as black used to be "racist" and we were expected do describe them as "people of colour" ....oops that is "bad" see above.

Now we have "BAME" and its days must surely be numbered .......... is it any wonder he got confused?

What is wrong with statement of fact? He is white. She is black. ............................ oh shoot I just assumed their genders.................


What a world.
 
I am somewhat confused about the whole racism against black people in English football. They make up 2% of the population but 30% of the last world cup squad. If as everyone seems to want quotas that reflect the population the biggest loser's will be black people as we add the Asian and white European groups into the squads (the two biggest minority groups). Would people object to quotas on playing sport therefore selecting only at tops 2 black players and adding 4 Asian heritage players into the English football squad? They are looking at quotas for managers why not players?
I think you're conflating a couple of different issues here.

The 'racism against black people in English football' discussion is centred around what I think is recognised as a concerning uptick in racist incidents directed at black players in recent years. Off the top of my head, FA Cup matches at lower levels have been abandoned after players were subjected to racist abuse, there have been incidents of racist abuse in Premier League matches (banana thrown at Aubameyang, Chelsea fans v Sterling, City fans v Fred) visible on national television, and black players, current and former, are receiving horrifically racist messages from trolls on social media. For whatever reason, racists feel emboldened in 2020. It is to highlight and condemn this abuse that players have started taking the knee and 'Black Lives Matter, Say No To Racism' imagery has been made more visible in the game. Nobody is seriously calling for quotas in terms of numbers of players, because there is no widespread issue with individuals being excluded as players because of their race - they are just calling for racist abuse to stop (which, bafflingly, some people still seem to object to).

The quotas issue in regards to black people in positions of authority is, I think, a separate and more subtle issue. Did you see that report that came out over the summer, that basically concluded that black players, in football commentary, are much more likely to have their physical attributes commented on, or to be defined by them (Yaya Toure, for example, was famously described as a 'beast'), while white players are more likely to be praised for their technical or mental attributes (David Silva, his former midfield partner, was and is still described as 'a little magician')? This might seem insignificant, but I think it does reflect how black players are seen more broadly, and harks back uncomfortably to the animalistic, dehumanising language of the above incidents. Black players are not seen as being intelligent in the same way as white players are - but there is, of course, absolutely no evidence for this. It's inherent bias. This is then reflected in how black players, following retirement, are denied positions of authority in the game; their perceived lack of intelligence means they are not seen as capable of running a club or an organisation. As you say, black players made up 30% of the last world cup squad. I haven't looked up the figures, but I would be willing to believe that, of the professional players in England, that number more or less reflects the proportion more broadly of professional footballers in this country who are black. So why are there only 6 black managers in the EFL and Premier League (rounding up, 7% of all the managers)? Surely, all else being equal, you would expect that number to be at least four times as high, to reflect the number of black players in the game? If this is not explained by systemic racism, what else explains it? (We can see this in individual examples, too: from the 'Golden Generation', Lampard, Gerrard, Gary Neville and Sol Campbell have all gone into management; three of those got plumb jobs right off the bat, at some of the biggest clubs in the world (Chelsea, Rangers and Valencia) while the other started out at Macclesfield, by all accounts did an excellent job, and then went to Southend. Guess which one was the black player? You might say, well, Campbell's a bit of a t**t, who in their right mind would hire him, but A) you don't really have anything to base that on beyond some off the cuff comments he made after being denied the Oxford job, B) that ignores the very good job he did at Macclesfield, which I would imagine a potential employer would take more notice of and C) suggests that Neville was in some way deserving of getting the Valencia job - which he manifestly wasn't. He couldn't even speak the language!)

Quotas are a simple form of positive discrimination that work at achieving substantive (equality of end result, up to a point, or at least opportunity), rather than formal (treat everyone exactly the same, not taking into account historic and ingrained disadvantages) equality. They can be a bit heavy-handed, and I know some BAME managers have criticised them as patronising, but they seem to me to be worthy of at least discussing as a means of addressing this ingrained prejudice against black former players.
 
This saying ‘people of colour’ is new on me. I’d not heard before last week when it was mentioned on BBC news a few times. Confusing in a way, because isn’t white a colour too?
The more colour gets mentioned the more racism seems to rear its ugly head
 
Postmodernist Marxism concerns itself with the breaking down of identity definitions and "social constructs" wherever they are found, as a wider critique of the supposed "patriarchy".

My point was that this tends to be the ideology of "the mob" which either forces people out of their jobs, or makes companies believe they have to force people out of their jobs for innocent mistakes. It's all part of cancel culture.
But what if the social constructs are an artificial and imposed so as to benefit some more than they benefit others?

Are they "the mob" just because they want to change that and it does not accord with the world view of others who wish to preserve the current status quo?

There's is a good reason why so many cannot accept the current equilibrium and that is because they do not perceive it as equal or fair. And I think there are a multitude of examples down the years to suggest they actually have a point. Whether you agree with their message and/or their methods or not is moot. Personally I find it more offensive to see p!ssed up gammon-faced skinheads and their mates urinating on monuments and places of historical significance, particularly when they purport to be protecting them all for the preservation of "are country" and "are way of life".

I would love to have the time to properly explore why so many want change and why so many don't want change....why has it "seemingly" become more polarised, angry and urgent in recent times? Is it any different to, say, woman's suffrage and the impact that had at the time? Is it any different to the disability discrimination protests that took place in the 1990's. The direct actions are similar, the level of anger equally so...on both sides. Those fighting for that were seen as radicals, activists, anarchists and (dare I say it) marxists. Did that devalue their message and their ultimate goal....and moreover, did they achieve it?

I'm comfortable fwith people wanting change, for wanting more equality, opportunity and fairness in society, and for wanting their voices heard. I am less comfortable with people refusing to listen to their cause or to simply pay it lip service or worse still, dismiss it out of hand.

I'm not sure I agree with you on people being forced out of their jobs for a one off mistake. I only see people having to leave their jobs when they have made comments or done stuff that indicates they are very out of touch with reality. I think in Clarkes case, he has made plenty of clumsy gaffes over time and seemingly hasn't learnt from them. Over time it simply becomes indefensible. Couple that with his supposed involvement with the doomed Project Big Picture and the perception of damage he may have inflicted on the FA's flagship Football Leadership Diversty Initiative, it may well be that the board at the FA had simply had enough - it was time for a change to someone a bit more switched on to the sensitivities around language and real inequality of opportunity in society.
 
But what if the social constructs are an artificial and imposed so as to benefit some more than they benefit others?

Are they "the mob" just because they want to change that and it does not accord with the world view of others who wish to preserve the current status quo?

There's is a good reason why so many cannot accept the current equilibrium and that is because they do not perceive it as equal or fair. And I think there are a multitude of examples down the years to suggest they actually have a point. Whether you agree with their message and/or their methods or not is moot. Personally I find it more offensive to see p!ssed up gammon-faced skinheads and their mates urinating on monuments and places of historical significance, particularly when they purport to be protecting them all for the preservation of "are country" and "are way of life".

I would love to have the time to properly explore why so many want change and why so many don't want change....why has it "seemingly" become more polarised, angry and urgent in recent times? Is it any different to, say, woman's suffrage and the impact that had at the time? Is it any different to the disability discrimination protests that took place in the 1990's. The direct actions are similar, the level of anger equally so...on both sides. Those fighting for that were seen as radicals, activists, anarchists and (dare I say it) marxists. Did that devalue their message and their ultimate goal....and moreover, did they achieve it?

I'm comfortable fwith people wanting change, for wanting more equality, opportunity and fairness in society, and for wanting their voices heard. I am less comfortable with people refusing to listen to their cause or to simply pay it lip service or worse still, dismiss it out of hand.

I'm not sure I agree with you on people being forced out of their jobs for a one off mistake. I only see people having to leave their jobs when they have made comments or done stuff that indicates they are very out of touch with reality. I think in Clarkes case, he has made plenty of clumsy gaffes over time and seemingly hasn't learnt from them. Over time it simply becomes indefensible. Couple that with his supposed involvement with the doomed Project Big Picture and the perception of damage he may have inflicted on the FA's flagship Football Leadership Diversty Initiative, it may well be that the board at the FA had simply had enough - it was time for a change to someone a bit more switched on to the sensitivities around language and real inequality of opportunity in society.
All very well put.

I would also add that for all people moan about 'cancel culture', the man with the most prestigious job in the land has described black people as 'piccanninnies with watermelon smiles', gay men as 'tank-topped bumboys' and Muslim women as letterboxes. He was elected the Prime Minister less than 12 months ago. Has he been 'cancelled'?
 
So why are there only 6 black managers in the EFL and Premier League (rounding up, 7% of all the managers)? Surely, all else being equal, you would expect that number to be at least four times as high, to reflect the number of black players in the game? If this is not explained by systemic racism, what else explains it? (We can see this in individual examples, too: from the 'Golden Generation', Lampard, Gerrard, Gary Neville and Sol Campbell have all gone into management; three of those got plumb jobs right off the bat, at some of the biggest clubs in the world (Chelsea, Rangers and Valencia) while the other started out at Macclesfield, by all accounts did an excellent job, and then went to Southend. Guess which one was the black player? You might say, well, Campbell's a bit of a t**t, who in their right mind would hire him, but A) you don't really have anything to base that on beyond some off the cuff comments he made after being denied the Oxford job, B) that ignores the very good job he did at Macclesfield, which I would imagine a potential employer would take more notice of and C) suggests that Neville was in some way deserving of getting the Valencia job - which he manifestly wasn't. He couldn't even speak the language!)

Quotas are a simple form of positive discrimination that work at achieving substantive (equality of end result, up to a point, or at least opportunity), rather than formal (treat everyone exactly the same, not taking into account historic and ingrained disadvantages) equality. They can be a bit heavy-handed, and I know some BAME managers have criticised them as patronising, but they seem to me to be worthy of at least discussing as a means of addressing this ingrained prejudice against black former players.
I posted this a while back in a different thread, but I think is relevant here:

## ##
"...The reasons that there are no BAME managers at the top level right now, is not because clubs today are being racist, it is because the pool of BAME managers who have the right degree of experience and success to warrant those positions is currently very small. The reason that it is very small is not to do with anything that is happening today, it is due to attitudes and opportunities within the game in the past, which limited the number of BAME people looking or achieveing moves into that side of the game at that time.

If we think back say 10-20 years, how many BAME managers were there in off-field positions within the game - Paul Ince, Chris Hughton, Keith Curle and Keith Alexander and that was about it wasnt it? Individually they made some progress, but were naturally limited by their abilities - CH has achieved some longevity and success in getting into the EPL, Ince started well, but fell off rapidly (and perhaps got more opportunities that he actually deserved), Curle has done OK at EFL level, but the others tended to stay at smaller clubs at the lower levels. So the only domestic BAME manager who would even be considered for an EPL role now would be Hughton, but has he had the success to justify a role at a top top club?

Nowadays I would reckon most clubs have one or more BAME staff within their main management/coaching setups, which they didnt back then, and there are more of them who have the drive and see the opportunity to move up the ladder into the #1 role either at their club or beyond. More are being offered chances as caretakers, more are turning those into permanent appointments, more are making a success of the role than before, so in time there will be more representation at these levels and out of this wider pool of people working their way up, there are more likely to be some who are able to reach further than those few that went before them.

As I've said before, the only barrier they face getting onto that ladder/into the 92 list, is the same as any rookie of any race faces, is convincing a board to take a gamble on an untried talent over a more experienced name or foreign manager, but that is nothing to do with race. Most ex-pros face this barrier, and it is only a handful of 'elite' players who can maybe get a leg-up based on their name rather than their abilities - Gerrard, Lampard and Sol Campbell are the most recent examples - while others get just one shot or no chance at all (eg Sherringham, Fowler to name but two).

So, it will happen naturally, and as a result of changes in society, but it will be evolution not revolution, which many will not consider to be quick enough..."
 
Postmodernist Marxism concerns itself with the breaking down of identity definitions and "social constructs" wherever they are found, as a wider critique of the supposed "patriarchy".

My point was that this tends to be the ideology of "the mob" which either forces people out of their jobs, or makes companies believe they have to force people out of their jobs for innocent mistakes. It's all part of cancel culture.

Could you explain what the first sentence means in layman's turns, please. I'm not as politically aware as you. What is 'postmodernist Marxism'?

How does this 'mob' get it's information?
 
I posted this a while back in a different thread, but I think is relevant here:

## ##
"...The reasons that there are no BAME managers at the top level right now, is not because clubs today are being racist, it is because the pool of BAME managers who have the right degree of experience and success to warrant those positions is currently very small. The reason that it is very small is not to do with anything that is happening today, it is due to attitudes and opportunities within the game in the past, which limited the number of BAME people looking or achieveing moves into that side of the game at that time.

If we think back say 10-20 years, how many BAME managers were there in off-field positions within the game - Paul Ince, Chris Hughton, Keith Curle and Keith Alexander and that was about it wasnt it? Individually they made some progress, but were naturally limited by their abilities - CH has achieved some longevity and success in getting into the EPL, Ince started well, but fell off rapidly (and perhaps got more opportunities that he actually deserved), Curle has done OK at EFL level, but the others tended to stay at smaller clubs at the lower levels. So the only domestic BAME manager who would even be considered for an EPL role now would be Hughton, but has he had the success to justify a role at a top top club?

Nowadays I would reckon most clubs have one or more BAME staff within their main management/coaching setups, which they didnt back then, and there are more of them who have the drive and see the opportunity to move up the ladder into the #1 role either at their club or beyond. More are being offered chances as caretakers, more are turning those into permanent appointments, more are making a success of the role than before, so in time there will be more representation at these levels and out of this wider pool of people working their way up, there are more likely to be some who are able to reach further than those few that went before them.

As I've said before, the only barrier they face getting onto that ladder/into the 92 list, is the same as any rookie of any race faces, is convincing a board to take a gamble on an untried talent over a more experienced name or foreign manager, but that is nothing to do with race. Most ex-pros face this barrier, and it is only a handful of 'elite' players who can maybe get a leg-up based on their name rather than their abilities - Gerrard, Lampard and Sol Campbell are the most recent examples - while others get just one shot or no chance at all (eg Sherringham, Fowler to name but two).

So, it will happen naturally, and as a result of changes in society, but it will be evolution not revolution, which many will not consider to be quick enough..."
I agree with a lot of this. All efforts that aim to redress a cultural shift are going to have a very delayed effect, the sort of change being sought doesn't happen overnight, and I'm sure the numbers will increase as recent generations begin to replace the 'old guard' at the top of the game. A couple of points though:

First, the wording 'clubs today are being racist' is indicative of a huge piece of this debate that gets lost in translation. The point is not that every football club owner who does not hire a BAME individual as manager is a raging white supremacist. It is that we are, all of us, influenced and affected by ingrained biases that we probably do not recognise as even being there at all. They subtly affect our thinking and perception of certain individuals and situations. I know I am certainly guilty of it, and work hard to try and recognise it and correct myself - but it does take conscious effort as, as I say, it is, in many cases, a socially ingrained thing. I think the study I refer to is an excellent example of this: noone is suggesting that Clyde Tyldesley secretly harbours dreams of an Arian master race, but commentators are, as are we all, guilty of acting upon certain ingrained and subtle biases.

Secondly, I'm not sure if I've misunderstood, but you mention that 10-20 years ago there were four managers working in English football. Is it not alarming, then, that over the course of a decade or two where such a focus has been on eradicating racial prejudice that number has only increased by two, across 92 clubs? (I also assume that that six includes Nuno Espirito Santo, who isn't even a product of the English football environment, so you might even say it has increased by one). I would agree that there are probably more black ex-pros in coaching positions than in the past (although I haven't seen any figures to support this), but you would have hoped more would have trickled through into management than getting the odd caretaker role by now, surely?

Further, I'm just not sure that you're right in saying, "the only barrier they face getting onto that ladder/into the 92 list ... is convincing a board to take a gamble on an untried talent ... but that is nothing to do with race." Steven Gerrard managed the Liverpool U-18s for ONE SEASON and got given the job at RANGERS - comfortably one of the two biggest clubs in Scotland and I would argue one of the dozen or so biggest clubs in the UK. That is more than a 'leg up', and more than was afforded to Campbell, who, I would argue, started out at a pretty appropriate level for a new manager - that is to say, quite literally, the bottom of the pile. One manager, it seems to me, suffered more of a barrier than the other, and it certainly wasn't a question of experience. Hell, even Joey Barton got his start at League One level, and he was nowhere near the calibre of player of Campbell.
 
Just want to say that this is a very emotive topic and I’m impressed how all cures are being listened to and respected and there’s no name calling or decline in conversation quality. There is no truth only opinions. Well done all.
 
This saying ‘people of colour’ is new on me. I’d not heard before last week when it was mentioned on BBC news a few times. Confusing in a way, because isn’t white a colour too?
The more colour gets mentioned the more racism seems to rear its ugly head
white and black are technically not colours.
 
I think in isolation "misspeaking" a word would be a point of order, but taken as a misspeak. But in the context of some of his previous words, and more particularly other things he said at the same time regarding the FA's IT team racial make up, female footballers, gay footballers etc. he just comes across as a dinosaur that is not fit for such a high profile role. TBH its also a handy way to get rid of him given all the future of the game shenanigans anyway.
 
Has Clarke as yet resigned his position on FIFA's top table too?
isn't he currently Vice President of FIFA?

IMO if his 'innapropriate' terminology resulted in him resigning from the FA,
he ought to resign from FIFA too
 
Has Clarke as yet resigned his position on FIFA's top table too?
isn't he currently Vice President of FIFA?

IMO if his 'innapropriate' terminology resulted in him resigning from the FA,
he ought to resign from FIFA too
I think Tyrone Mings makes a lot of sense but surely it would have to go to who was the more experienced no matter what colour in replacing Clarke.
 
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