National News The Brexit Thread 🇬🇧🇪🇺

[ZeroTheHero]

You're being very cynical, having a trade deal doesn't mean food regulations don't apply to whatever it is you're importing.

Yup, get me - distrusting what politicians say!

I certainly hope that is the case, with the same being true for animal welfare standards, farming practices and allowed chemicals. As ever we will have to wait and see what actually happens rather than just believing what we are told will happen.

 

[RyanioBirdio]

Might be worth people checking out the media of the countries that these deals are being done with, rather than only swallowing what the flag-waving marketeers are telling people over here. You’ll learn a lot more about what these deals genuinely entail by listening to the other side.

Australians under 35 will be able to move here more easily, because as many people have been saying for years, you don’t get trade deals without concessions on things like movement of people and VISAs.

It’s all good and well while it’s those jolly Aussies who are coming over more often, but wait until we start doing deals with non-English speaking countries filled with… gosh, I can’t even say it… people of colour.

 

[Carpy]

Australians under 35 will be able to move here more easily, because as many people have been saying for years, you don’t get trade deals without concessions on things like movement of people and VISAs.

It's reciprocated by them though, so all those spotty little British pissheads can go there more easily too

 

[RyanioBirdio]

It's reciprocated by them though, so all those spotty little British pissheads can go there more easily too

Irrelevant. Lots of people voted for Brexit based on immigration and foreign people coming here to live and work. “British jobs for British people, they speak their own language on the bus” etc etc. Those people always expected that us Brits can go and do whatever we like. They only cared and the Poles and the Slovaks and the Bulgarians living in their towns, and they didn’t care that they were just as free to go the other way as part of the club. I’m not saying that every Brexit supporter is like that, but I’m saying that every person like that was a Brexit supporter.

Let’s see how those people feel in the years ahead when white European immigrants are replaced with… other people. Then again, many of them will be dead soon anyway.

 

[Carpy]

Irrelevant. Lots of people voted for Brexit based on immigration and foreign people coming here to live and work. “British jobs for British people, they speak their own language on the bus” etc etc. Those people always expected that us Brits can go and do whatever we like. They only cared and the Poles and the Slovaks and the Bulgarians. I’m not saying that every Brexit supporter is like that, but I’m saying that every person like that was a Brexit supporter.

Let’s see how those people feel in the years ahead when white European immigrants are replaced with… other people. Then again, many of them will be dead soon anyway.

I think you significantly over simplify it and I think a smaller proportion than you realise voted in this way, trying to dissect the reasons why is tough, and ultimately I should imagine that none of them will justify the eventual outcome from your point of view so it's largely irrelevant.

To pick up on one specific point... is it that unreasonable to expect someone moving here permanently to attempt to learn the language spoken in this Country, I don't think so, just like I don't think it unreasonable for the Spanish or the French to expect us to do the same if we were to move there.

 

[RyanioBirdio]

To pick up on one specific point... is it that unreasonable to expect someone moving here permanently to attempt to learn the language spoken in this Country, I don't think so, just like I don't think it unreasonable for the Spanish or the French to expect us to do the same if we were to move there.

That would be implying that two Polish people speaking Polish to each other on a bus means that they can’t speak English. Who says they can’t speak English? That’s the point and yes, I have seen and heard the “they speak their own language all the time” argument wheeled out over and over for years. If I moved to Spain and learned Spanish, but was speaking to my family member while we were out together, I would probably speak to them in English as it’s our native tongue. Doesn’t mean I can’t speak Spanish or must be “talking about them.” Love that one. “Who knows what they’re talking about?” None of your f*****g business, Karen.

The irony being that I have lived next to and worked with numerous Eastern European immigrants over the years, and I’ve never met one who didn’t speak at least a basic level of English which only improved. Yet between myself and my parents - couple of friends of mine, numerous retired friends of theirs, even my own godmother and her husband - I know of probably 10+ people who have moved to Spain and lived there for a number of years who don’t even know enough Spanish to have a basic conversation, and have no intention of learning it. I bet more people who move here learn English than the other way around.

Doesn’t matter anyway. I’m enjoying a life of patriots telling me I hate Britain, purely because they cheer the damage being done to it while I mourn it. Funny old world.

 

[Carpy]

That would be implying that two Polish people speaking Polish to each other on a bus means that they can’t speak English. Who says they can’t speak English? That’s the point and yes, I have seen and heard the “they speak their own language all the time” argument wheeled out over and over for years. If I moved to Spain and learned Spanish, but was speaking to my family member while we were out together, I would probably speak to them in English as it’s our native tongue. Doesn’t mean I can’t speak Spanish or must be “talking about them.” Love that one. “Who knows what they’re talking about?” None of your f*****g business, Karen.

The irony being that I have lived next to and worked with numerous Eastern European immigrants over the years, and I’ve never met one who didn’t speak at least a basic level of English which only improved. Yet between myself and my parents - couple of friends of mine, numerous retired friends of theirs, even my own godmother and her husband - I know of probably 10+ people who have moved to Spain and lived there for a number of years who don’t even know enough Spanish to have a basic conversation, and have no intention of learning it. I bet more people who move here learn English than the other way around.

We're in agreement on all points, except the bit about you hating Britain, I'm sure that's not true, you just have a different opinion on whether or not Brexit is a good or bad thing

 

[Sheik djibouti]

We're in agreement on all points, except the bit about you hating Britain, I'm sure that's not true, you just have a different opinion on whether or not Brexit is a good or bad thing

Still endlessly waiting for the good to materialise........

Meanwhile.......https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-57253069

I'm beginning to think that Samuel Beckett was a visionary and foretold the illusion of Brexit dividend in Waiting for Godot.

 

[RyanioBirdio]

We're in agreement on all points, except the bit about you hating Britain, I'm sure that's not true, you just have a different opinion on whether or not Brexit is a good or bad thing

I can actively see the damage that has been done. We are worse off than before and that is indisputable. Doesn’t matter if it’s only 1% worse off - anything other than an improvement to our lives means it was a bad decision. You don’t hand over £100 and get less than £100 back, even if it’s £99.99, and get to call it a win, which is what too many people are doing. If you hand over £100 you need at least £100.01 in return to make that claim, and even then you have to weigh up what you went through for that penny.

Plenty of people doing the “wait and see, it’s too early to judge” thing, but that is simply a never ending get out of jail free card. “Just a little further, it’s got to get better, give it a few more years, we can’t turn back now.” It’s the same as politicians who say that now isn’t the time to judge them, but when you try to come back to it later say it’s time to move on and stop living in the past. It’s gaslighting nonsense. Not yet, not yet, not yet… too late now, sorry.

Politicians are still using Brexit to keep people divided and to fight for votes, even though it’s done. We’re now in the “keep voting for us or someone might try to undo it all before we win the jackpot” stage. Meanwhile the few people actually benefitting from it in the here and now remain unopposed in selling out their country for their own gain, and will continue to be cheered on until they eventually die or leave the rock themselves, having set fire to it while it simultaneously sinks. It’s like watching someone hold another person down and force themselves on them, while onlookers stand around whooping and hollering as they thrust. The average person, which is the overwhelming majority of the population, isn’t winning. Only losing a tiny bit isn’t a victory.

Still, at least they haven’t made everybody hate each other and then trapped them on an island together, because freedom of movement has disappeared meaning we all have to sit here together while getting angrier and angrier. That would be like putting Oxford and Swindon fans on the Stratton Bank together, giving them more and more booze and then locking the gates. That would be really stupid.

I’m off to get a bigger flag.

 

[Carpy]

I can actively see the damage that has been done. We are worse off than before and that is indisputable. Doesn’t matter if it’s only 1% worse off - anything other than an improvement to our lives means it was a bad decision. You don’t hand over £100 and get less than £100 back, even if it’s £99.99, and get to call it a win, which is what too many people are doing. If you hand over £100 you need at least £100.01 in return to make that claim, and even then you have to weigh up what you went through for that penny.

Plenty of people doing the “wait and see, it’s too early to judge” thing, but that is simply a never ending get out of jail free card. “Just a little further, it’s got to get better, give it a few more years, we can’t turn back now.” It’s the same as politicians who say that now isn’t the time to judge them, but when you try to come back to it later say it’s time to move on and stop living in the past. It’s gaslighting nonsense. Not yet, not yet, not yet… too late now, sorry.

Politicians are still using Brexit to keep people divided and to fight for votes, even though it’s done. We’re now in the “keep voting for us or someone might try to undo it all before we win the jackpot” stage. Meanwhile the few people actually benefitting from it in the here and now remain unopposed in selling out their country for their own gain, and will continue to be cheered on until they eventually die or leave the rock themselves, having set fire to it while it simultaneously sinks. It’s like watching someone hold another person down and force themselves on them, while onlookers stand around whooping and hollering as they thrust. The average person, which is the overwhelming majority of the population, isn’t winning. Only losing a tiny bit isn’t a victory.

Still, at least they haven’t made everybody hate each other and then trapped them on an island together, because freedom of movement has disappeared meaning we all have to sit here together while getting angrier and angrier. That would be like putting Oxford and Swindon fans on the Stratton Bank together, giving them more and more booze and then locking the gates. That would be really stupid.

I’m off to get a bigger flag.

Brexit was always going to be a short term negative though, anyone claiming it hasn't been more negative than just staying in the EU isn't being honest with themselves, having said that, I think it is entirely legitimate to make a decision that causes short term pain if you believe it offers long term gain, I get why that is a hard argument for non-Brexit voting folk to take.

The division is sad to see, even on this forum you know as a Brexit voter you're sticking your head above the trench, looking to be shot at from all directions, that's why as much as I don't agree with some of what @Essexyellows posts on this thread, fair play to the guy for standing there and taking the hits

 

[m]

Brexit was always going to be a short term negative though, anyone claiming it hasn't been more negative than just staying in the EU isn't being honest with themselves, having said that, I think it is entirely legitimate to make a decision that causes short term pain if you believe it offers long term gain, I get why that is a hard argument for non-Brexit voting folk to take.

The division is sad to see, even on this forum you know as a Brexit voter you're sticking your head above the trench, looking to be shot at from all directions, that's why as much as I don't agree with some of what @Essexyellows posts on this thread, fair play to the guy for standing there and taking the hits

Can I point out that the poll which was carried out on here backed Brexit?

There is nothing to suggest that remainers are the majority.

 

[Carpy]

Can I point out that the poll which was carried out on here backed Brexit?

There is nothing to suggest that remainers are the majority.

No, not suggesting that, but what I am saying is, Brexit voters are more likely to stay silent

 

[QR]

Irrelevant. Lots of people voted for Brexit based on immigration and foreign people coming here to live and work. “British jobs for British people, they speak their own language on the bus” etc etc. Those people always expected that us Brits can go and do whatever we like. They only cared and the Poles and the Slovaks and the Bulgarians living in their towns, and they didn’t care that they were just as free to go the other way as part of the club. I’m not saying that every Brexit supporter is like that, but I’m saying that every person like that was a Brexit supporter.

Let’s see how those people feel in the years ahead when white European immigrants are replaced with… other people. Then again, many of them will be dead soon anyway.

Reminds me of this gem from the wonderful John Cooper-Clarke.

We walked out – tentacle in hand
You could sense that the earthlings would not understand
They’d go.. nudge nudge …when we got off the bus
Saying it’s extra-terrestial – not like us
And it’s bad enough with another race
But f**k me… a monster …from outer space

 

[Essexyellows]

I find it "difficult" that the remain side frequently say "Show me the benefits, right here, right now".

When we joined it was easy, we joined the Common Market and the tap of "free trade" was turned on as well as giving subsequent Governments the "free shot" to outsource any troubles or woes. It also enabled some leaders to outsource lots of state-owned facilities and businesses.

Over the space of 40+ years, the organisation morphed, developed and grew into something we, by raw democracy, decided to leave.

First up we have transferred all those "rules & regs" directly onto our statute books until such a time as we decide to keep, amend or delete.
That will not happen overnight and that was before a pesky little virus arrived.

That makes it "easy" for the opposition to pick tiny little snippets and make out they are the four horseman charging through the country.

Give it 40 years and see if we are worse off or not, we won`t be but I`ll be a slobbering mess in a nursing home.

Don`t just take it from me.... these folk know stuff.

Why Britain really joined the EEC (and why it had nothing to do with helping our economy)

Conventional historiography has put forward some dubious reasons for Britain’s membership of the EEC, writes Alan Sked. Most students seem to think that Britain was some sort of economic bask…

blogs.lse.ac.uk

 

[SteMerritt]

I find it "difficult" that the remain side frequently say "Show me the benefits, right here, right now".

That is the flip-side of your mantra though. You know the one...

Give it 40 years and see if we are worse off or not

Both of these replies are unhelpful really.

 

[RyanioBirdio]

Yes, it must be very “difficult” when people ask for the most basic justification for a decision and there isn’t one beyond “keep waiting and seeing forever and stop asking questions in the meantime cos shut up.” Imagine someone having the nerve to ask why you forced them to move house, to a different town where they don’t know anybody, to live in a property not as good as the previous one but which costs more for no real reason, which also means they’re going to have less opportunity and find it harder to have a quality of life as good as they just had it, and them daring to ask why you did it. They need putting in their place.

I agree - let’s wait 40 years and never question anything that happens, and see what we think before having any opinion. Most of the people responsible for the decision and who have spent decades raping the country will be dead by then, and won’t have to deal with any of the mess or ever be held accountable for the role that they played in putting us in the hole. If I’m still alive I’ll be in my seventies, but I’ll be glad that my life was handicapped in my prime along with countless millions of others, and that many of the young people around me and all the ones who came after had less opportunity than those who came before them. I guess that I wouldn’t understand, because I’m not patriotic enough. If you love something you smack it in the mouth and throw it down some stairs.

Yes, I suppose that I too find it “difficult” dealing with or listening to people who just want everybody to believe for decades on end that things might be better than they were before, sort of kinda maybe possibly, because they have no answers to the questions posed to them that doesn’t involve kicking the can. Having to justify your decisions and be made accountable for them while you’re still in the room? Ghastly.

“You won. Get over it.”

 

[Essexyellows]

What were the immediate, tangible benefits 6 months after we joined the EEC?

Take a guess............. they took much longer and nobody really knew for a loooonnnggg time.

 

[Carpy]

Yes, it must be very “difficult” when people ask for the most basic justification for a decision and there isn’t one beyond “keep waiting and seeing forever and stop asking questions in the meantime cos shut up.” Imagine someone having the nerve to ask why you forced them to move house, to a different town where they don’t know anybody, to live in a property not as good as the previous one but which costs more for no real reason, which also means they’re going to have less opportunity and find it harder to have a quality of life as good as they just had it, and them daring to ask why you did it. They need putting in their place.

I agree - let’s wait 40 years and never question anything that happens, and see what we think before having any opinion. Most of the people responsible for the decision and who have spent decades raping the country will be dead by then, and won’t have to deal with any of the mess or ever be held accountable for the role that they played in putting us in the hole. If I’m still alive I’ll be in my seventies, but I’ll be glad that my life was handicapped in my prime along with countless millions of others, and that many of the young people around me and all the ones who came after had less opportunity than those who came before them. I guess that I wouldn’t understand, because I’m not patriotic enough. If you love something you smack it in the mouth and throw it down some stairs.

Yes, I suppose that I too find it “difficult” dealing with or listening to people who just want everybody to believe for decades on end that things might be better than they were before, sort of kinda maybe possibly, because they have no answers to the questions posed to them that doesn’t involve kicking the can. Having to justify your decisions and be made accountable for them while you’re still in the room? Ghastly.

“You won. Get over it.”

I'm sorry but what is ghastly about this whole paragraph is your complete lack of appreciation or respect for democracy, more people voted to leave than they did stay but because those people were old, somehow their vote is less meaningful.

You may not like the majority vote, and you can disagree with it's merits all day long, that's the point in democracy, but to suggest that because you've got longer left than the next person, somehow your opinion matters more is quite frankly farcical

 

[QR]

I'm old enough to remember when this was called Project Fear.

BBC News - EE to reintroduce Europe roaming charges in January

EE to reintroduce Europe roaming charges in January

The mobile operator EE is to charge new UK customers to use their phones in Europe.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Essexyellows]

I'm old enough to remember when this was called Project Fear.

BBC News - EE to reintroduce Europe roaming charges in January

EE to reintroduce Europe roaming charges in January

The mobile operator EE is to charge new UK customers to use their phones in Europe.

www.bbc.co.uk

They are not the "old style roaming charges" where folk get a bill for thousands when they got home they are a fair use limit.

From the article..............

"Those joining or upgrading from 7 July 2021 will be charged £2 a day to use their allowances in 47 European destinations from January 2022."

Fair use limits are normal and were allowed when the UK was still part of the EU.


So it will make a difference to not many people at all and could have happened anyway.