World Cup 25/11/2022: Group Stage - England v USA: 1900

[SteMerritt]

Bobby Robson and Terry Venables better managers by a mile.

World Cup in Russia. We had Tunisia and Panama in our group easy to qualify.

Colombia in second round. Go 1-0 up, and then sat back all game. Mina scores later for Colombia. We win a lottery on pens.

Quarters we drew Sweden, the easiest of the four games, and a Swedish side no where near as good as before.

Semis - Croatia, a familiar pattern. We score with a Trippier free kick, then sit back and pay the price, and Croatia score, and because of our negativity we lose it in Extra Time.

3rd/4th place playoff Belgium again, and another defeat against decent opposition.

Euros,

Group stage we breeze through the group stages, playing every game at Wembley. Other nations we forced to travel to Turkey and back to Spain, and we only had a Semi final in Rome.

The final the familiar pattern again. We score early, and at that moment the Italians are rocked and deflated. We should be going for the throat, but no Gareth decides to sit back on 1-0 again, and as the game went on Italy finishes the first half better.

Second half, Italy come out and dominate the ball, because we sat back inviting them on to us. They get a well deserved equaliser, and should have gone on to win it in normal time. Instead we go to penalties, and picked these players that were shot of confidence and they all missed. Players like Sterling were sat there not taking a pen.

Southgate is not a good manager, and he’s a boring negative t**t.

You can do that kind of analysis with Euro 96 as well though as you mention Venables. Poor v Switzerland, Scotland missed a pen to make it 1-1, we were great against Holland. Quarter's v Spain lucky as they had a goal disallowed before we won on penalties. Good against Germany but came up short.

Can even do the same analysis for Italia 90... Poor in draw with Ireland, played well in draw with Holland. Poor game against Egypt but won 1-0. Outplayed by Belgium but platt scored in 120th minute, outmuscled v Cameroon and got through thanks to a really soft penalty. Played well v Germany in the semi but came up short.

England never play well all through a tournament.

 

[Leysboy]

Empirically means going by the stats. You can argue otherwise but I’m not that interested in England. We’ve never been great in my watching lifetime

I know what it means, but I’m saying Ramsey, Robson, Venables, are the top three managers.

Then giving you examples of his negativity, and you cannot ignore the familiarity’s.

 

[Paul Cannell]

Empirically means going by the stats.

Empirically means going by the evidence. Only that.

 

[Leysboy]

You can do that kind of analysis with Euro 96 as well though as you mention Venables. Poor v Switzerland, Scotland missed a pen to make it 1-1, we were great against Holland. Quarter's v Spain lucky as they had a goal disallowed before we won on penalties. Good against Germany but came up short.

Can even do the same analysis for Italia 90... Poor in draw with Ireland, played well in draw with Holland. Poor game against Egypt but won 1-0. Outplayed by Belgium but platt scored in 120th minute, outmuscled v Cameroon and got through thanks to a really soft penalty. Played well v Germany in the semi but came up short.

England never play well all through a tournament.

I remember that Spain shootout Fernando Hierro hit the crossbar.

The familiar patterns under Southgate is get a lead, and then sit back. It’s awful to watch, and his negativity is there for all to see.

 

[unification]

Bobby Robson and Terry Venables better managers by a mile.

World Cup in Russia. We had Tunisia and Panama in our group easy to qualify.

Colombia in second round. Go 1-0 up, and then sat back all game. Mina scores later for Colombia. We win a lottery on pens.

Quarters we drew Sweden, the easiest of the four games, and a Swedish side no where near as good as before.

Semis - Croatia, a familiar pattern. We score with a Trippier free kick, then sit back and pay the price, and Croatia score, and because of our negativity we lose it in Extra Time.

3rd/4th place playoff Belgium again, and another defeat against decent opposition.

Euros,

Group stage we breeze through the group stages, playing every game at Wembley. Other nations we forced to travel to Turkey and back to Spain, and we only had a Semi final in Rome.

The final the familiar pattern again. We score early, and at that moment the Italians are rocked and deflated. We should be going for the throat, but no Gareth decides to sit back on 1-0 again, and as the game went on Italy finishes the first half better.

Second half, Italy come out and dominate the ball, because we sat back inviting them on to us. They get a well deserved equaliser, and should have gone on to win it in normal time. Instead we go to penalties, and picked these players that were shot of confidence and they all missed. Players like Sterling were sat there not taking a pen.

Southgate is not a good manager, and he’s a boring negative t**t.

Whatever.

Cling onto the misty eyed memories of 1990 if you want. I could happily dissect every game from that tournament in the same way you’ve done above to prove Robson was lucky. Curious that Euro ‘84 and Euro ‘88 doesn’t get a mention from you either. Venables was a great man manager but once again just because England did well that tournament and ‘Three Lions’ was fresh and new, England were damn lucky there too - Spain QF anyone?

No manager in my lifetime has got as close as Southgate has to actually winning anything with England. You can question some things about the Euros final but I remember the thread on here for the Germany game where almost every poster said ‘take Kane off’. He scored to send us through. You can just criticise without giving kudos to where he got it right. Watch the second half of extra time against Denmark and England were in control of a game that should have been nerve-wracking. It was superb how well they controlled it.

Go back to the shock-and-awe of Eriksson, divided squads where the Liverpool and Man United players won’t talk to each other and a miserable camp under Capello, the utter farce of Allardyce, the failures of Taylor, Hodgson and McLaren if you want. If you can’t acknowledge that England actually have an approach for a change under Southgate, you’re just letting blind bias get in the way.

 

[Paul Cannell]

England never play well all through a tournament.

Not sure any team does.

The best ever winners, Italy in 82, spent the qualifiers learning to play with the cleverest and best striker ever (Paolo Rossi, who been out of the game for months because of betting allegations and being excluded from life by the Red Brigades).

Then they fucked the world.

 

[Leysboy]

Whatever.

Cling onto the misty eyed memories of 1990 if you want. I could happily dissect every game from that tournament in the same way you’ve done above to prove Robson was lucky. Curious that Euro ‘84 and Euro ‘88 doesn’t get a mention from you either. Venables was a great man manager but once again just because England did well that tournament and ‘Three Lions’ was fresh and new, England were damn lucky there too - Spain QF anyone?

No manager in my lifetime has got as close as Southgate has to actually winning anything with England. You can question some things about the Euros final but I remember the thread on here for the Germany game where almost every poster said ‘take Kane off’. He scored to send us through. You can just criticise without giving kudos to where he got it right. Watch the second half of extra time against Denmark and England were in control of a game that should have been nerve-wracking. It was superb how well they controlled it.

Go back to the shock-and-awe of Eriksson, divided squads where the Liverpool and Man United players won’t talk to each other and a miserable camp under Capello, the utter farce of Allardyce, the failures of Taylor, Hodgson and McLaren if you want. If you can’t acknowledge that England actually have an approach for a change under Southgate, you’re just letting blind bias get in the way.

I thought Bobby Robson was unlucky in Mexico 86 although we limped through the group. We all know why, we lost it, and so does the world.

Not clinging on to anything. Even at Club level them two are miles ahead of Southgate.

What has Gareth achieved at club level, oh he got sacked by Middlesbrough.

 

[IsleofWightYellow]

Player ratings:

Pickford: 6

Shaw: 6
Maguire: 8
Stones: 7
Trippier: 4

Rice: 5
Bellingham: 5
Mount: 3

Sterling: 5
Kane: 4
Saka: 6

Subs:

Henderson: 6
Grealish: 7
Rashford: 6

 

[werthersoriginal]

I know what it means, but I’m saying Ramsey, Robson, Venables, are the top three managers.

Then giving you examples of his negativity, and you cannot ignore the familiarity’s.

They were probably better managers but Southgate has done better than all but Ramsey. My point is that there’s no reason to assume England will be good. When I was a kid they didn’t even qualify for the 70s tournaments.

 

[SirAndyOfCrosby]

As someone who genuinely couldn't give a flying f*ck about England, these threads are a welcome respite from what I do care about.

I can only imagine what it's like for those of you who care about international football like you care about OUFC.

Up the f**king Ox.

 

[bazzer9461]

Good to see our club represented

 

[holdsteady]

I thought Bobby Robson was unlucky in Mexico 86 although we limped through the group. We all know why, we lost it, and so does the world.

Not clinging on to anything. Even at Club level them two are miles ahead of Southgate.

What has Gareth achieved at club level, oh he got sacked by Middlesbrough.

Was Robson unlucky at the Euros in 88? We were embarrassed there.

 

[holdsteady]

We were poor tonight, but unless a miracle happens we are essentially through, tournament football is about getting out of the group and then going from there so Southgate will be judged by how we do in the knockout stage.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

England will win nothing till we employ a non English manager like a Pep who appreciates technically gifted footballers.

It’s always runners & powerhouses galore across our side.

We should have a football team with the likes of Alexander-Arnold, Tomori, Maddison, Bellingham, Foden, Grealish in.

But instead we love basic players like Maguire, Trippier, Henderson, Rice, Mount.

Boring.

 

[werthersoriginal]

England will win nothing till we employ a non English manager like a Pep who appreciates technically gifted footballers.

It’s always runners & powerhouses galore across our side.

We should have a football team with the likes of Alexander-Arnold, Tomori, Maddison, Bellingham, Foden, Grealish in.

But instead we love basic players like Maguire, Trippier, Henderson, Rice, Mount.

Boring.

Yeah let’s get Fabio Capello back, that was a good time wasn’t it?

 

[YellowSubmarine]

Yeah let’s get Fabio Capello back, that was a good time wasn’t it?

So you pick a defensive Italian.

I want a manager who will let our stars express themselves.

 

[werthersoriginal]

So you pick a defensive Italian.

I want a manager who will let our stars express themselves.

Maybe our stars aren’t really that great? Our top league is full of foreigners and our players aren’t in great demand abroad. I love Calum Wilson but I can’t see Barcelona pursuing him.

The trouble is also that the job isn’t exciting enough for top managers like Pep.

 

[tonto]

There is no doubt that Southgate is a very conservative manager. Keeping Kane on and not giving Wilson a chance for ten minutes was ridiculous also taking Bellingham off when he was one of the few players making runs off the ball which were completely ignored by his teammates who seemed to be programmed to pass the ball backwards only. Team looked stale,changes needed for the welsh game if only to give some players a rest. Dont think it matters much wether we finish first or second teams in group A are all similar quality.

 

[tonyw]

Uh-oh!!

Eh, it wasn't so bad - the Americans around me were happy not to have lost, and therefore to still have their fate in their own hands on Tuesday. I could still brazen it out given that the draw means we've basically already qualified courtesy of running up our goal difference against Iran.


And how are people still so misty-eyed about Italia 90?
We scored 7 goals total in 6 games (not including the pointless 3rd placed playoff) and never beat a genuinely good side. Gazza's tears coupled with Nessun Dorma, Lineker's finishing and a solid defense have led many to completely overrate that side.

Southgate's teams aren't exactly 1970 Brazil, but they get better results that any England side in my lifetime.

 

[chuckbert]

You can argue about Robinson etc, but Southgate is empirically one of the best ever England managers. WC semi and Euros final must put him in the top three.

Yeah but he didn’t win one so he’s a failure (isn’t that how the argument goes?)