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Study: New stadium location of safe standing model.

OUFCwaffle

Well-known member
1) Introduction
I've been doing a science experiment for the purpose of verifying what I was told during the fans forum regarding the placement of safe standing for home fans. From the fans forum I quote (not word for word but thereabouts), "the north stand would be the better placement due to the negative pitch on the roof compared to the south stand with a positive pitch, leading to sound being reflected down rather than pushed up and out".

2) Methodology
The model was conducted using my high end acoustics modelling software that is Microsoft Paint.

The model shows two key areas. The first being the audibility zone (shown in green) where sound is heard either directly from the source, or by reflection off a surface. The second being the dead zone (shown in red) where sound is lost out of the stadium.

I have modelled it based on the highest row of supporters for that area (shown by the blue stick man). This represents the best possible acoustics profile for that particular area. As the rows descend, the dead zone widens and the audibility zone narrows.

3) Limitations
-This is only showing a 2D cross-section, there will be additional reverberations off other surfaces that are not shown.
-The roof height varies along the width of both stands, so this only shows the profile of the centreline of the stand, directly behind the goal.
-Reflection lines are only approximately drawn, and are for indication only and cannot be used to accurately quantify sound levels at various points.
-It is assuming a maximum sound cone of approximately 160° from the source.

4) Findings
Figure 1 shows a dead zone with a maximum angle of approximately 30° and a further 10° dead zone at the rear of the stand.
So of the 160° sound cone, 25% of the total noise generated is lost.
Of the audible zone, 30° of the cone is projected directly on to the pitch from the source, and only approximately 10° of the noise will be reflected off the roof onto the pitch, the rest will be reflected back into the stand. This means that of the total noise generated, only 25% of it will be audible on the pitch. The sound reflected off the roof will be concentrated to within 20 yards of the goal line.

Figure 1 - North stand acoustics model best case
Acoustics north stand.jpg

Figure 2 shows a dead zone with a maximum angle of approximately 15° and a further 10° dead zone at the rear of the stand.
So of the 160° sound cone, 15% of the total noise generated is lost.
Of the audible zone, 35° of the cone is projected directly on to the pitch from the source, and 30° of the noise will be reflected off the roof onto the pitch, the rest will be reflected back into the stand. This means that of the total noise generated, 40% of it will be audible on the pitch. The sound reflected off the roof will be broadly spread out over the pitch up to the halfway line.

Figure 2 - South stand acoustics model best case
Acoustics south stand.JPG

5) Conclusions
-The north stand has a maximum audibility of 75%, compared to the south stand with an audibility of 85%, a 10% reduction in total noise generated within the stadium.
-The north stand has a maximum pitch reflection of approximately 20 yards, compared to the south stand with approximately 60 yards of pitch reflection. This means that for the remaining 40 yards of pitch, the south stand will generate twice the level of noise of the north stand.
-The north stand could be louder closer to the goal than the south stand due to the roof pitch, but the south stand will be louder over the whole pitch.
-The loss of 4 rows of seating at the top of the north stand will mean 15% less noise will be generated from that stand compared to the south stand.
-The audible noise level of the north stand will at best comparable to the east stand at the Kassam Stadium, if not worse.
-The statement given by the club "the north stand would be the better placement due to the negative pitch on the roof compared to the south stand with a positive pitch, leading to sound being reflected down rather than pushed up and out" is not correct and clearly misinformed.
-Home fans will have to be much louder than away fans to generate the same level of noise, which will mean it will be potentially harder to create a loud home atmosphere than if they had put safe standing in the south stand.

6) Recommendations
-The club should conduct a thorough acoustics review to more accurately quantify the figures given in this study to help inform their decision making.
-The club should explore safe standing across the whole of the south stand, as this will arguably be the loudest area of the stadium.
-Alternatively, keep the safe standing in the north stand, but extend the roof out further. This will reduce the acoustic dead zone and increase the amount of noise reflected down on to the pitch.

7) Final thoughts
It is disappointing that acoustics have been neglected by the club when designing the stadium. Generating the loudest possible home atmosphere is key to improving match day experience and boosting performances on the pitch.
 
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I thought I heard the safe standing wasn't going behind the goal and was going in the corners?

Also is wind direction a factor that will help with the acoustics from one end?
 
1) Introduction
I've been doing a science experiment for the purpose of verifying what I was told during the fans forum regarding the placement of safe standing for home fans. From the fans forum I quote (not word for word but thereabouts), "the north stand would be the better placement due to the negative pitch on the roof compared to the south stand with a positive pitch, leading to sound being reflected down rather than pushed up and out".

2) Methodology
The model was conducted using my high end acoustics modelling software that is Microsoft Paint.

The model shows two key areas. The first being the audibility zone (shown in green) where sound is heard either directly from the source, or by reflection off a surface. The second being the dead zone (shown in red) where sound is lost out of the stadium.

I have modelled it based on the highest row of supporters for that area (shown by the blue stick man). This represents the best possible acoustics profile for that particular area. As the rows descend, the dead zone widens and the audibility zone narrows.

3) Limitations
-This is only showing a 2D cross-section, there will be additional reverberations off other surfaces that are not shown.
-The roof height varies along the width of both stands, so this only shows the profile of the centreline of the stand, directly behind the goal.
-Reflection lines are only approximately drawn, and are for indication only and cannot be used to accurately quantify sound levels at various points.
-It is assuming a maximum sound cone of approximately 160° from the source.

4) Findings
Figure 1 shows a dead zone with a maximum angle of approximately 30° and a further 10° dead zone at the rear of the stand.
So of the 160° sound cone, 25% of the total noise generated is lost.
Of the audible zone, 30° of the cone is projected directly on to the pitch from the source, and only approximately 10° of the noise will be reflected off the roof onto the pitch, the rest will be reflected back into the stand. This means that of the total noise generated, only 25% of it will be audible on the pitch. The sound reflected off the roof will be concentrated to within 20 yards of the goal line.

Figure 1 - North stand acoustics model best case
View attachment 18205

Figure 2 shows a dead zone with a maximum angle of approximately 15° and a further 10° dead zone at the rear of the stand.
So of the 160° sound cone, 15% of the total noise generated is lost.
Of the audible zone, 35° of the cone is projected directly on to the pitch from the source, and 30° of the noise will be reflected off the roof onto the pitch, the rest will be reflected back into the stand. This means that of the total noise generated, 40% of it will be audible on the pitch. The sound reflected off the roof will be broadly spread out over the pitch up to the halfway line.

Figure 2 - South stand acoustics model best case
View attachment 18206

5) Conclusions
-The north stand has a maximum audibility of 75%, compared to the south stand with an audibility of 85%, a 10% reduction in total noise generated within the stadium.
-The north stand has a maximum pitch reflection of approximately 20 yards, compared to the south stand with approximately 60 yards of pitch reflection. This means that for the remaining 40 yards of pitch, the south stand will generate twice the level of noise of the north stand.
-The north stand could be louder closer to the goal than the south stand due to the roof pitch, but the south stand will be louder over the whole pitch.
-The loss of 4 rows of seating at the top of the north stand will mean 15% less noise will be generated from that stand compared to the south stand.
-The audible noise level of the north stand will at best comparable to the east stand at the Kassam Stadium, if not worse.
-The statement given by the club "the north stand would be the better placement due to the negative pitch on the roof compared to the south stand with a positive pitch, leading to sound being reflected down rather than pushed up and out" is not correct and clearly misinformed.
-Home fans will have to be much louder than away fans to generate the same level of noise, which will mean it will be potentially harder to create a loud home atmosphere than if they had put safe standing in the south stand.

6) Recommendations
-The club should conduct a thorough acoustics review to more accurately quantify the figures given in this study to help inform their decision making.
-The club should explore safe standing across the whole of the south stand, as this will arguably be the loudest area of the stadium.
-Alternatively, keep the safe standing in the north stand, but extend the roof out further. This will reduce the acoustic dead zone and increase the amount of noise reflected down on to the pitch.

7) Final thoughts
It is disappointing that acoustics have been neglected by the club when designing the stadium. Generating the loudest possible home atmosphere is key to improving match day experience and boosting performances on the pitch.
Just so we can determine the validity of your work, could you provide us with your qualifications/experience in the field of acoustics/stadia design?
 
I thought I heard the safe standing wasn't going behind the goal and was going in the corners?

Also is wind direction a factor that will help with the acoustics from one end?
It will be in the away corner, and behind the north goal and both corners that end.
 
It will be in the away corner, and behind the north goal and both corners that end.

So there is more home standing than away standing?

What about the home support who like to sit behind the goal like the bottom half of the east stand currently?
 
So there is more home standing than away standing?

What about the home support who like to sit behind the goal like the bottom half of the east stand currently?
There will be home seating behind the goal in the South Stand.
 
Surely the atmosphere experienced from by the fans in the stadium is not determined by the volume of sound that escapes onto the pitch, it is the volume of sound that is retained within the stand. In other words, we enjoy it more it when we can hear that we are making more noise. From that point of view the diagram of North Stand looks like it would retain more sound and be the louder one to be standing in.
 
I too thought I heard the safety chap say the rail seating would be in the corners, but he did waffle on a bit. He also said if rail seating was behind the goals it would need to go all the way across due to sight lines of those sitting.

Considering there will be almost 4,000 rail seats they can't just be in the corners. To me the best solution is to have the rail seats along the back rows in both the North and South stands including the corners- this would then include the rail seating for away support.

I can't see why that isn't possible and would then allow our 'singers' to locate in whichever end they wanted.
 
Surely the atmosphere experienced from by the fans in the stadium is not determined by the volume of sound that escapes onto the pitch, it is the volume of sound that is retained within the stand. In other words, we enjoy it more it when we can hear that we are making more noise. From that point of view the diagram of North Stand looks like it would retain more sound and be the louder one to be standing in.
I'd say it's the more sound reflected back down to both home and away support, rather than being lost. waffles extensive research shows more green lines reflected back down from the south stand
 
but that is suggesting that sound travels in neat straight lines. There are also factors like warm and cold air that affect how the sound changes over distance. How it reflects off surfaces also depends on the materials used. Not an expert, but some knowledge (and as they say a little knowledge is dangerous).

1710870732930.png
 
Have you taken into account the roof design where by the home roof slopes downwards to project the noise down to the pitch, whereas the roof above the away slopes upwards so the sound escapes more easily and isn’t so loud.

One of the reasons Port Vale fans wanted to swap ends was because of the acoustics in the stand that away fans were put in, which was seen to be better for creating noise.
 
Have you taken into account the roof design where by the home roof slopes downwards to project the noise down to the pitch, whereas the roof above the away slopes upwards so the sound escapes more easily and isn’t so loud.

One of the reasons Port Vale fans wanted to swap ends was because of the acoustics in the stand that away fans were put in, which was seen to be better for creating noise.
He did. Take a look at the images.
 
1) Introduction
I've been doing a science experiment for the purpose of verifying what I was told during the fans forum regarding the placement of safe standing for home fans. From the fans forum I quote (not word for word but thereabouts), "the north stand would be the better placement due to the negative pitch on the roof compared to the south stand with a positive pitch, leading to sound being reflected down rather than pushed up and out".

2) Methodology
The model was conducted using my high end acoustics modelling software that is Microsoft Paint.

The model shows two key areas. The first being the audibility zone (shown in green) where sound is heard either directly from the source, or by reflection off a surface. The second being the dead zone (shown in red) where sound is lost out of the stadium.

I have modelled it based on the highest row of supporters for that area (shown by the blue stick man). This represents the best possible acoustics profile for that particular area. As the rows descend, the dead zone widens and the audibility zone narrows.

3) Limitations
-This is only showing a 2D cross-section, there will be additional reverberations off other surfaces that are not shown.
-The roof height varies along the width of both stands, so this only shows the profile of the centreline of the stand, directly behind the goal.
-Reflection lines are only approximately drawn, and are for indication only and cannot be used to accurately quantify sound levels at various points.
-It is assuming a maximum sound cone of approximately 160° from the source.

4) Findings
Figure 1 shows a dead zone with a maximum angle of approximately 30° and a further 10° dead zone at the rear of the stand.
So of the 160° sound cone, 25% of the total noise generated is lost.
Of the audible zone, 30° of the cone is projected directly on to the pitch from the source, and only approximately 10° of the noise will be reflected off the roof onto the pitch, the rest will be reflected back into the stand. This means that of the total noise generated, only 25% of it will be audible on the pitch. The sound reflected off the roof will be concentrated to within 20 yards of the goal line.

Figure 1 - North stand acoustics model best case
View attachment 18205

Figure 2 shows a dead zone with a maximum angle of approximately 15° and a further 10° dead zone at the rear of the stand.
So of the 160° sound cone, 15% of the total noise generated is lost.
Of the audible zone, 35° of the cone is projected directly on to the pitch from the source, and 30° of the noise will be reflected off the roof onto the pitch, the rest will be reflected back into the stand. This means that of the total noise generated, 40% of it will be audible on the pitch. The sound reflected off the roof will be broadly spread out over the pitch up to the halfway line.

Figure 2 - South stand acoustics model best case
View attachment 18206

5) Conclusions
-The north stand has a maximum audibility of 75%, compared to the south stand with an audibility of 85%, a 10% reduction in total noise generated within the stadium.
-The north stand has a maximum pitch reflection of approximately 20 yards, compared to the south stand with approximately 60 yards of pitch reflection. This means that for the remaining 40 yards of pitch, the south stand will generate twice the level of noise of the north stand.
-The north stand could be louder closer to the goal than the south stand due to the roof pitch, but the south stand will be louder over the whole pitch.
-The loss of 4 rows of seating at the top of the north stand will mean 15% less noise will be generated from that stand compared to the south stand.
-The audible noise level of the north stand will at best comparable to the east stand at the Kassam Stadium, if not worse.
-The statement given by the club "the north stand would be the better placement due to the negative pitch on the roof compared to the south stand with a positive pitch, leading to sound being reflected down rather than pushed up and out" is not correct and clearly misinformed.
-Home fans will have to be much louder than away fans to generate the same level of noise, which will mean it will be potentially harder to create a loud home atmosphere than if they had put safe standing in the south stand.

6) Recommendations
-The club should conduct a thorough acoustics review to more accurately quantify the figures given in this study to help inform their decision making.
-The club should explore safe standing across the whole of the south stand, as this will arguably be the loudest area of the stadium.
-Alternatively, keep the safe standing in the north stand, but extend the roof out further. This will reduce the acoustic dead zone and increase the amount of noise reflected down on to the pitch.

7) Final thoughts
It is disappointing that acoustics have been neglected by the club when designing the stadium. Generating the loudest possible home atmosphere is key to improving match day experience and boosting performances on the pitch.
I have read this at length and found this VERY interesting.

Thank you for this post - as much as I {and many of us) like the 'new look' of the Triangle project, I never thought to consider (until now) that there
may be a flaw in its design as far as acoustics and fan noise {matchday experience} is concerned.

I've also wondered (when we finally get to our new home) whether or not we have sufficient capacity?
16,000 is starting to seem a 'little light', to me.
18 - 20k is more realistic - in the present climate.
What do you guys think?
 
I have read this at length and found this VERY interesting.

Thank you for this post - as much as I {and many of us) like the 'new look' of the Triangle project, I never thought to consider (until now) that there
may be a flaw in its design as far as acoustics and fan noise {matchday experience} is concerned.

I've also wondered (when we finally get to our new home) whether or not we have sufficient capacity?
16,000 is starting to seem a 'little light', to me.
18 - 20k is more realistic - in the present climate.
What do you guys think?
Speaking to one of the stadium team, the increase to 20k is pretty easy ( extend a stand)
Going beyond 20,000 is more difficult.
 
I think we need to worry about getting the 16k stadium built first.

If we don’t get that built then the club is no more.

The plans allow for the stadium to get extended as and when it needs it.

I don’t want to put a downer on the amazing ST sales so far but if we go straight back down, will we get the same amount of ST sales?
 
I think we need to worry about getting the 16k stadium built first.

If we don’t get that built then the club is no more.

The plans allow for the stadium to get extended as and when it needs it.

I don’t want to put a downer on the amazing ST sales so far but if we go straight back down, will we get the same amount of ST sales?

We're definitely growing as a fan base so I think we'll still see an increase from the 5400 we had last season if we were to come straight back down (which we all hope we won't).
 
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