International News Russian War With Ukraine

[Essexyellows]

Jus ad bellum – the justness for entering war – and Jus in bello – the justness of how the war is fought.

In the case of Ukraine they were invaded by an enemy force.

In the case of Israel they were attacked by an enemy force.

Both sides have the right to defend themselves, Ukraine are fighting a modern military war of attrition whereas Israel are trying to be far more clinical and targeted.

If the aid workers in Gaza had been in Ukraine and hit by untargeted munitions then little would be said, the collateral damage excuse.

Because they were specifically targeted by a very technologically advanced military that leaves questions to be answered, but Israel will not stop because of it.

In both conflicts none of the participants will get 100% of what they want and the civilian population will suffer the most as ever.

PS: Highly recommend "Ukraine: Enemy in the Forest" on iplayer. Brutal but real.

 

[Big Ron]

Jus ad bellum – the justness for entering war – and Jus in bello – the justness of how the war is fought.

In the case of Ukraine they were invaded by an enemy force.

In the case of Israel they were attacked by an enemy force.

Both sides have the right to defend themselves, Ukraine are fighting a modern military war of attrition whereas Israel are trying to be far more clinical and targeted.

If the aid workers in Gaza had been in Ukraine and hit by untargeted munitions then little would be said, the collateral damage excuse.

Because they were specifically targeted by a very technologically advanced military that leaves questions to be answered, but Israel will not stop because of it.

In both conflicts none of the participants will get 100% of what they want and the civilian population will suffer the most as ever.

PS: Highly recommend "Ukraine: Enemy in the Forest" on iplayer. Brutal but real.

If you read the recent reports on the use of AI in Israel's campaign and look at the overall death toll, I'm not sure how apt the description 'targeted' is, unless of course they targeting the wider population of Gaza.

Still Sue-Ellen Braverman is doing her utmost to represent the British view - what an appalling and cynical person she is.

 

[MustardYellow]

But that's Google for you. It's a search engine and will give the highest number of hits around the wording you've used. A search of "aid workers killed on conflict in Ukraine" will look for all relevant articles with some or all of the wording used. A day after one of the biggest news stories of the year will always reflect that over stories that haven't registered recent outrage.

As for your views on legitimate targets in Gaza and your dismissive view of thousands of dead women, children, aid workers and journalists, and the starvation of an entire state as "collateral damage"? You're exceptionally naive.

It's the key difference between a military target and a civilian target. A residential block, a house, a school, and even a hospital can legally be a legitimate military target if it is being used by the enemy in any way to a military advantage. It was explained to me (by someone who knows more about international law than me!) as if in a war you had a residential block full with civilians, but in the penthouse there's a mere handful of terrorist with just a radio giving instructions/orders/intel to the enemy, that entire block would more than likely be classified as a legitimate military target, and any attack against it likely justified.

This is a key part of international law regarding civilians and military targets: 'As a consequence, the presence or movement of the civilian population may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations and, in particular, to protect military objectives from attack (API, art. 51(7)).'

I'm not dismissive at all, but it's a war. People die in a war. We know that as well as most in this country over the last 125 years. It's s**t but it's the way it is.

On the point of 'thousands of dead women and children', that's a matter of demographics and the fact Hamas are using them as shields.

 

[bashamwonderland]

It's the key difference between a military target and a civilian target. A residential block, a house, a school, and even a hospital can legally be a legitimate military target if it is being used by the enemy in any way to a military advantage. It was explained to me (by someone who knows more about international law than me!) as if in a war you had a residential block full with civilians, but in the penthouse there's a mere handful of terrorist with just a radio giving instructions/orders/intel to the enemy, that entire block would more than likely be classified as a legitimate military target, and any attack against it likely justified.

This is a key part of international law regarding civilians and military targets: 'As a consequence, the presence or movement of the civilian population may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations and, in particular, to protect military objectives from attack (API, art. 51(7)).'

I'm not dismissive at all, but it's a war. People die in a war. We know that as well as most in this country over the last 125 years. It's s**t but it's the way it is.

On the point of 'thousands of dead women and children', that's a matter of demographics and the fact Hamas are using them as shields.

And what about the fact Israel is intentionally withholding aid and food, forcing a famine which is killing children.

Even the US has become uncomfortable with the way Israel is almost "genociding" their way through Palestine. They've even had to set up their own aid route because the Israelis are being so unreasonable.

 

[Big Ron]

It's the key difference between a military target and a civilian target. A residential block, a house, a school, and even a hospital can legally be a legitimate military target if it is being used by the enemy in any way to a military advantage. It was explained to me (by someone who knows more about international law than me!) as if in a war you had a residential block full with civilians, but in the penthouse there's a mere handful of terrorist with just a radio giving instructions/orders/intel to the enemy, that entire block would more than likely be classified as a legitimate military target, and any attack against it likely justified.

This is a key part of international law regarding civilians and military targets: 'As a consequence, the presence or movement of the civilian population may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations and, in particular, to protect military objectives from attack (API, art. 51(7)).'

I'm not dismissive at all, but it's a war. People die in a war. We know that as well as most in this country over the last 125 years. It's s**t but it's the way it is.

On the point of 'thousands of dead women and children', that's a matter of demographics and the fact Hamas are using them as shields.

You sound like a spokesman for the IDF. I fully support Israel's right to respond proportionately after the horrific Hamas October raids but do you really believe that all 33,000 (read that number out loud) Palestinian deaths are because they are being used as shields? All of them?

Apart from bw's comments above , take a look at this report regarding the use of AI:

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edition.cnn.com

 

[MustardYellow]

If you read the recent reports on the use of AI in Israel's campaign and look at the overall death toll, I'm not sure how apt the description 'targeted' is, unless of course they targeting the wider population of Gaza.

Still Sue-Ellen Braverman is doing her utmost to represent the British view - what an appalling and cynical person she is.

In the first 3 months of the war it's estimated Israel dropped 45,000 bombs in Gaza. During that time period the death toll in Gaza was around 20,000. How many of those were Hamas militants is disputed but you could assume a few thousand.

Do you not think that if they genuinely wanted to kill as many people as possible with 45,000 bombs to drop in an area a third the size of greater London with a population of over 2 million, there'd have almost certainly been a death toll far greater than 20k?

 

[Scotchegg]

It's the key difference between a military target and a civilian target. A residential block, a house, a school, and even a hospital can legally be a legitimate military target if it is being used by the enemy in any way to a military advantage. It was explained to me (by someone who knows more about international law than me!) as if in a war you had a residential block full with civilians, but in the penthouse there's a mere handful of terrorist with just a radio giving instructions/orders/intel to the enemy, that entire block would more than likely be classified as a legitimate military target, and any attack against it likely justified.

This is a key part of international law regarding civilians and military targets: 'As a consequence, the presence or movement of the civilian population may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations and, in particular, to protect military objectives from attack (API, art. 51(7)).'

I'm not dismissive at all, but it's a war. People die in a war. We know that as well as most in this country over the last 125 years. It's s**t but it's the way it is.

On the point of 'thousands of dead women and children', that's a matter of demographics and the fact Hamas are using them as shields.

AsI said, exceptionally naive. Get away from Google and Twitter and open your eyes to what is going on in the world. Israel are at war with Hamas, they are not at war with the Palestinian people. Yet they are killing them in their thousands, and looking starve them in their hundreds of thousands.

To say "it's s**t but it's the way it is" is disgusting and you should be ashamed.

 

[MustardYellow]

And what about the fact Israel is intentionally withholding aid and food, forcing a famine which is killing children.

Even the US has become uncomfortable with the way Israel is almost "genociding" their way through Palestine. They've even had to set up their own aid route because the Israelis are being so unreasonable.

It depends which way you interpret the law. If you consider them to be occupying Gaza, then there is a case for them legally being responsible for supplying aid. If you don't consider them to be occupying Gaza, then the war doesn't change that they aren't responsible for aid. For example, Russia isn't now responsible for feeding Ukrainian civilians because they're at war with Ukraine.

The case bout Israel controlling imports is often made, but if that makes them an occupying force then so is Egypt, as they control the movement of goods/services and also implement a blockades just like Israel.

 

[MustardYellow]

You sound like a spokesman for the IDF. I fully support Israel's right to respond proportionately after the horrific Hamas October raids but do you really believe that all 33,000 (read that number out loud) Palestinian deaths are because they are being used as shields? All of them?

Apart from bw's comments above , take a look at this report regarding the use of AI:

Loading...

edition.cnn.com

What point are you making? That any civilian deaths during a war = genocide? Or that a country shouldn't be able to defend itself if it results in any civilian casualties?

Ukraine have killed Russian civilians in defence, is that disgusting and genocidal too? Allied bombing alone in WW2 killed upwards of 500,000 German civilians, what's your take on that?

 

[bashamwonderland]

It depends which way you interpret the law. If you consider them to be occupying Gaza, then there is a case for them legally being responsible for supplying aid. If you don't consider them to be occupying Gaza, then the war doesn't change that they aren't responsible for aid. For example, Russia isn't now responsible for feeding Ukrainian civilians because they're at war with Ukraine.

The case bout Israel controlling imports is often made, but if that makes them an occupying force then so is Egypt, as they control the movement of goods/services and also implement a blockades just like Israel.

There's the black and white "letter of the law" interpretation, and then there's the slightly more moral quandary that they are inducing famine onto millions of innocent people in retaliation for a terror attack.

For what it's worth I don't think Israel is an occupying force. They have simply waded straight into a country of people and indiscriminately slaughtered them and are now starving them because they hate them. They have no intention of "occupying" them in the traditional sense.

They have destroyed and attacked hospitals and killed aid workers with precision strikes. They have committed war crimes.

They are just as bad as Russia.

 

[Big Ron]

What point are you making? That any civilian deaths during a war = genocide? Or that a country shouldn't be able to defend itself if it results in any civilian casualties?

Ukraine have killed Russian civilians in defence, is that disgusting and genocidal too? Allied bombing alone in WW2 killed upwards of 500,000 German civilians, what's your take on that?

Any war or military campaign will inevitably see civilian deaths, it's a horrible and tragic reality and one you've reduced to a dispassionate numbers game.

Don't glibly make comparisons to a global war in a different age. The Israeli's have access to the most sophisticated weaponry and systems we have ever seen, along with well trained personnel - their targets are not simply the members of Hamas but the people of Gaza. Seemingly, the aid workers from Global Kitchen were not 'collateral damage' (I hate that term) but a targeted hit that has had the desired effect in seeing other aid agencies pull out.

 

[Scotchegg]

There's the black and white "letter of the law" interpretation, and then there's the slightly more moral quandary that they are inducing famine onto millions of innocent people in retaliation for a terror attack.

For what it's worth I don't think Israel is an occupying force. They have simply waded straight into a country of people and indiscriminately slaughtered them and are now starving them because they hate them. They have no intention of "occupying" them in the traditional sense.

They have destroyed and attacked hospitals and killed aid workers with precision strikes. They have committed war crimes.

They are just as bad as Russia.

I don't always agree with you, but this is a fantastically powerful post that I completely agree with.

I would go further in saying that the actions of Israel are worse than Russia. Israel has access to the most technically advance military equipment in the world, and has overwhelming numbers and training than anything Hamas can counter. They could have walked into Gaza and killed or imprisoned just as many terrorists as they have with barely any civilian casualties. They could have worked with International partners to protect all essential services and hospitals, and to establish aid from the very beginning. They could have driven Hamas out and created longer term peace and a real two state solution.

But they have chosen to kill as many people as they can, to destroy Gaza and starve out those who remain. This is evil beyond words, and the fact that the west are still arming and supporting Israel is even worse.

 

[MustardYellow]

AsI said, exceptionally naive. Get away from Google and Twitter and open your eyes to what is going on in the world. Israel are at war with Hamas, they are not at war with the Palestinian people. Yet they are killing them in their thousands, and looking starve them in their hundreds of thousands.

To say "it's s**t but it's the way it is" is disgusting and you should be ashamed.

I don't see why pointing out international law makes me naive, to be honest. We killed Germans in their hundreds of thousands, and destroyed key civilian infrastructure to aid our war effort. The same has happened in every war since the dawn of time.

I think the truth is people just don't like Israel so hold them to different standards.

 

[MustardYellow]

There's the black and white "letter of the law" interpretation, and then there's the slightly more moral quandary that they are inducing famine onto millions of innocent people in retaliation for a terror attack.

For what it's worth I don't think Israel is an occupying force. They have simply waded straight into a country of people and indiscriminately slaughtered them and are now starving them because they hate them. They have no intention of "occupying" them in the traditional sense.

They have destroyed and attacked hospitals and killed aid workers with precision strikes. They have committed war crimes.

They are just as bad as Russia.

An attack committed by the Government of another territory. Some would correctly describe that as an act of war.

As previously stated using international law, there's no proof (thus far) they've committed war crimes. They certainly haven't been found guilty of any. Again, attacking a hospital is not a 'war crime' in itself. Israel has provided internationally accepted proof that hospitals, their grounds, and tunnels beneath them have been being used by Hamas, making them legitimate military targets - if you have a problem with this then your problem is with Hamas, not Israel!

Hamas attacked Israel. Ukraine didn't attack Russia. To describe self defence as 'just as bad' as an unprovoked invasion is an odd assessment to say the least.

 

[Scotchegg]

I think the truth is people just don't like Israel so hold them to different standards.

Dumb!

 

[bashamwonderland]

An attack committed by the Government of another territory. Some would correctly describe that as an act of war.

As previously stated using international law, there's no proof (thus far) they've committed war crimes. They certainly haven't been found guilty of any. Again, attacking a hospital is not a 'war crime' in itself. Israel has provided internationally accepted proof that hospitals, their grounds, and tunnels beneath them have been being used by Hamas, making them legitimate military targets - if you have a problem with this then your problem is with Hamas, not Israel!

Hamas attacked Israel. Ukraine didn't attack Russia. To describe self defence as 'just as bad' as an unprovoked invasion is an odd assessment to say the least.

Having read Scotchegg's post above, I would actually agree with him and change my opinion. Israel aren't as bad as Russia, they are worse.

Russia isn't committing a genocide against Ukrainians so they can steal their land. Russia presumably intends to have Ukrainians still living in Ukraine when its war is over. Israel would prefer to destroy Palestine so it can settle it just like it settled the rest of the land it has stolen. All the Palestinians would be dead, or at least gone.

Genocide is not self defence.

 

[Big Ron]

Dumb!

And lazy. Just one step from calling us 'anti-semites'.

 

[Marked Ox]

It depends which way you interpret the law. If you consider them to be occupying Gaza, then there is a case for them legally being responsible for supplying aid. If you don't consider them to be occupying Gaza, then the war doesn't change that they aren't responsible for aid. For example, Russia isn't now responsible for feeding Ukrainian civilians because they're at war with Ukraine.

The case bout Israel controlling imports is often made, but if that makes them an occupying force then so is Egypt, as they control the movement of goods/services and also implement a blockades just like Israel.

Israel also control access via crossing points into Gaza from Egypt. Nobody/or any goods are allowed into Gaza via crossing points unless Israel gives permission.

Pre-war, Israel also collected taxes for the Palestine Authorities at the crossings as they controlled them and fairly regularly used the taxes as a weapon by withholding them if the PA didn't do what they wanted or showed dissent.

Israel are actively blocking Aid, hence the US response. The US are looking to sail over a floating dock as Israel won't allow the use of a port 30 minutes away for Aid. The US have also had to drop in Aid by air which is inefficient, limits the amount that can be sent in and it is more dangerous as distribution can't be controlled (ie. Desperate Gazans have died from the aid being dropped on to them and in the desperate stampede to get food/water).

WKC (whose Aid workers got blown up) have also use a temporary dock to get supplies in as the Israelis have consistently blocked or severely limited distribution via land crossings.

The US and other allies have publically pointed out the large stocks of Aid waiting to go into Gaza that the Israelis are blocking. The famine that is already happening has been engineered by Israel by its actions. Famine has been warned about for months now by Aid agencies/the UN etc but still Israel have blocked/limited Aid supplies into Gaza.

And WKC, along with a US aid Agency (AREMA or something like that) who provide the main bulk of aid currently have suspended operations because of this attack so the famine potentially gets a lot worse and quicker.

 

[MustardYellow]

Any war or military campaign will inevitably see civilian deaths, it's a horrible and tragic reality and one you've reduced to a dispassionate numbers game.

Don't glibly make comparisons to a global war in a different age. The Israeli's have access to the most sophisticated weaponry and systems we have ever seen, along with well trained personnel - their targets are not simply the members of Hamas but the people of Gaza. Seemingly, the aid workers from Global Kitchen were not 'collateral damage' (I hate that term) but a targeted hit that has had the desired effect in seeing other aid agencies pull out.

Sophisticated weaponry doesn't mean no civilian deaths. A bomb is a bomb, a missile is a missile - hit a building, no matter how targeted, in a populous area and there's always a strong possibility for collateral, or consequences for those beyond your intended target.

As for the aid workers, Israel have taken responsibility for it but based on what I have seen they seemingly don't know how or why it happened. I think I read last night there will be an investigation to determine the circumstances of it. I did see someone suggest that most of the time aid groups have certain authorised places to go/routes to take, and that potentially the vehicles in question weren't on that authorised route so the vehicles were assumed stolen by Hamas/being used for other purposes. Complete speculation but we'll have to wait to know the actual circumstances.

 

[Essexyellows]

If you read the recent reports on the use of AI in Israel's campaign and look at the overall death toll, I'm not sure how apt the description 'targeted' is, unless of course they targeting the wider population of Gaza.

Still Sue-Ellen Braverman is doing her utmost to represent the British view - what an appalling and cynical person she is.

Small area, heavily populated, heavy military intervention people will get killed AI or not. As Hamas are mixed in with the civilian population then the population will also pay the price, as will other innocent parties.

After centuries of ingrained hatred neither side will back down from the myopic view that they are right. And that applies to Gaza or Ukraine.