International News Russian War With Ukraine

[Wandering Yellow]

I don't care what happened in 1948. If we really want to talk about history, Israel was created in the Iron Age. 'Historians and archaeologists agree that the Kingdom of Israel existed by ca. 900 BCE'. Israel pre-dates 'Palestine' by more than a millennium.

You're talking about something completely different. If Germany won the war it would've been through invasion and conquer. The modern state of Israel was founded through an international treaty agreed by the UN. Jewish leaders accepted the plan, while Arab leaders rejected it and attacked Jews, starting a war. They were comprehensively beaten, and ultimately Israel became much larger than was first proposed because of it.

None of that is relevant to the fact that in 2023 Israel were attacked by a foreign government and are retaliating in self defence, though.

What you say is largely true but part of Israel's expansion has defied international law, settlements in the West Bank for example.

Does this need its own thread? Russia Ukraine is the topic here really.

 

[Big Ron]

I don't care what happened in 1948. If we really want to talk about history, Israel was created in the Iron Age. 'Historians and archaeologists agree that the Kingdom of Israel existed by ca. 900 BCE'. Israel pre-dates 'Palestine' by more than a millennium.

You're talking about something completely different. If Germany won the war it would've been through invasion and conquer. The modern state of Israel was founded through an international treaty agreed by the UN. Jewish leaders accepted the plan, while Arab leaders rejected it and attacked Jews, starting a war. They were comprehensively beaten, and ultimately Israel became much larger than was first proposed because of it.

None of that is relevant to the fact that in 2023 Israel were attacked by a foreign government and are retaliating in self defence, though.

Just wondering if you'd managed to 'read' anything else throwing doubt on the WCK volunteer killings, particularly now that the Israeli's have admitted to 'grave' errors and actually pursuing the victims from marked car to marked car? I don't have any problems with people having a view and vehemently arguing for that but there was a touch of the conspiracy theorist in a couple of your posts.

 

[MustardYellow]

What you say is largely true but part of Israel's expansion has defied international law, settlements in the West Bank for example.

Does this need its own thread? Russia Ukraine is the topic here really.

True, but that's a separate issue to Gaza. There are no settlements in Gaza and they have their own governments and governing bodies entirely separate from Israel.

And yeah, it probably does!!!

 

[MustardYellow]

So in 1948 when, backed by the British, the Israeli state forced Palestinians out of their homes and off their land your are saying the Palestinians should have said 'fair dos you were here in 900 BCE' and just moved on. Are you calling for all non native American to return to the lands of their forefathers? What a pathetic argument.

Now, answer my question.

'Palestinians' started a civil war with Jews. 'According to historian Benny Morris, the period (1947, beginning of the civil war) was marked by Palestinian Arab attacks and Jewish defensiveness, increasingly punctuated by Jewish reprisals.' They were losing, so many fled. This led to the 'Arab League's' involvement, which caused the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. Again, they lost, and Israel gained territory, as often happens in war.

This idea Palestinians were these peaceful folk forced off their land unprovoked and into a war they never wanted is wildly inaccurate. What a lot of people forget (or conveniently fail to mention) is Palestinians were attacking (legal) Jewish immigrants for *years* prior to the founding of modern Israel.

 

[chuckbert]

'Palestinians' started a civil war with Jews. 'According to historian Benny Morris, the period (1947, beginning of the civil war) was marked by Palestinian Arab attacks and Jewish defensiveness, increasingly punctuated by Jewish reprisals.' They were losing, so many fled. This led to the 'Arab League's' involvement, which caused the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. Again, they lost, and Israel gained territory, as often happens in war.

This idea Palestinians were these peaceful folk forced off their land unprovoked and into a war they never wanted is wildly inaccurate. What a lot of people forget (or conveniently fail to mention) is Palestinians were attacking (legal) Jewish immigrants for *years* prior to the founding of modern Israel.

You mean Benny Morris the Zionist historian who "has often been condemned for his opinion that the expulsion of all Palestinian Arabs from Israel would have been justified"?

 

[MustardYellow]

Just wondering if you'd managed to 'read' anything else throwing doubt on the WCK volunteer killings, particularly now that the Israeli's have admitted to 'grave' errors and actually pursuing the victims from marked car to marked car? I don't have any problems with people having a view and vehemently arguing for that but there was a touch of the conspiracy theorist in a couple of your posts.

'World Central Kitchen team were transferring these supplies to a warehouse a few kilometres further south.
During this process, the IDF says their drone operators spotted a gunman riding on the roof of a large aid lorry that was being escorted by the WCK team. They played those of us at the briefing a somewhat blurry video - which has not been released to the public - showing a figure holding a gun, on top of the lorry. At one point the gun is fired, showing up clearly on the slowed-down black and white footage.'

'The drone footage also appears to confirm that at night, the stickers on the roof of the World Central Kitchen vehicles, with the charity's logo, are not visible to the drone operator.'

'The military then tracks the convoy, including the aid lorry, to a warehouse. Then the convoy splits, with the aid lorry remains in the warehouse, and four SUV-type cars emerge. One of those vehicles heads north, and is then shown to contain gunmen, with weapons clearly visible from the drone footage, as they emerge.'

No doubt it was a mistake that Israel are rightly taking responsibility for, but these excerpts are enough to discount the idea it was a specified and targeted attack against aid workers. The drone operator believed they were dealing with Hamas militants.

 

[Big Ron]

'World Central Kitchen team were transferring these supplies to a warehouse a few kilometres further south.
During this process, the IDF says their drone operators spotted a gunman riding on the roof of a large aid lorry that was being escorted by the WCK team. They played those of us at the briefing a somewhat blurry video - which has not been released to the public - showing a figure holding a gun, on top of the lorry. At one point the gun is fired, showing up clearly on the slowed-down black and white footage.'

'The drone footage also appears to confirm that at night, the stickers on the roof of the World Central Kitchen vehicles, with the charity's logo, are not visible to the drone operator.'

'The military then tracks the convoy, including the aid lorry, to a warehouse. Then the convoy splits, with the aid lorry remains in the warehouse, and four SUV-type cars emerge. One of those vehicles heads north, and is then shown to contain gunmen, with weapons clearly visible from the drone footage, as they emerge.'

No doubt it was a mistake that Israel are rightly taking responsibility for, but these excerpts are enough to discount the idea it was a specified and targeted attack against aid workers. The drone operator believed they were dealing with Hamas militants.

This is a flimsy piece of self of self-justification. Must be terrible for those held responsible being sacked. I feel for them.

They've made a terrible mistake and this is simply trying to deflect from that and drag apologists like you along with them in the name of 'collateral damage' (that horrible phrase again). In no way does a report lacking in any independence 'discount the idea it was a specified and targeted attack against aid workers'.

200 aid workers have been killed, 200, but the sad thing is that most of them are Palestinians so it's barely reported. It's taken the killing of western aid workers from allies of Israel for this to make the headlines.

 

[Ian]

I've just read some more, and 2 of the 3 vehicles hit were unmarked. It doesn't say which of the vehicles the dead were in.

Interestingly, the BBC asked the WCK to provide details of the locations they told the IDF their vehicles would be, and they refused.

Israel has admitted it was a mistake. To suggest they did it 'for the sole purpose of intimating other aid agencies to stay away' is speculation being presented as fact.

I'll leave a picture of one of the unmarked vehicles here.

 

[Big Ron]

I'll leave a picture of one of the unmarked vehicles here.

View attachment 18722

Yeah, but it was dark you know............................

 

[Marked Ox]

Yeah, but it was dark you know............................

And the IDF had been told about the convoy etc.........

 

[Big Ron]

And the IDF had been told about the convoy etc.........

Yeah, but I'm I sure read somewhere..................

 

[Marked Ox]

If we're talking about Al-Shifa hospital specifically, then yes: 'The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said it had killed 200 terrorists, detained over 500 more and found weapons and intelligence "throughout the hospital".' That was during the most recent raid, due to Hamas regrouping there. The previous one uncovered a Hamas tunnel network under the hospital.

They want to control it for the reasons we saw on October 7th. We've seen the amount of weaponry Hamas are able to smuggle into Gaza even with Israel's border control, imagine how much worse it would be without it?

It's quite remarkable that Israel are expected to fund and supply their enemy- an enemy which has vowed their destruction.

Any images of the things claimed?

As the IDF said "an unarmed Palestinian" with his arms up and hands open being shot in cold blood by Israeli troops didn't happen until video coverage of it appeared. The IDF initially also tried to claim the little girl killed and the Ambulance sent to her with IDF agreement that was blown up didn't happen as well.

 

[Marked Ox]

True, but that's a separate issue to Gaza. There are no settlements in Gaza and they have their own governments and governing bodies entirely separate from Israel.

And yeah, it probably does!!!

No it isn't, they are deeply intertwined.

 

[Scotchegg]

I don't care what happened in 1948. If we really want to talk about history, Israel was created in the Iron Age. 'Historians and archaeologists agree that the Kingdom of Israel existed by ca. 900 BCE'. Israel pre-dates 'Palestine' by more than a millennium.

You're talking about something completely different. If Germany won the war it would've been through invasion and conquer. The modern state of Israel was founded through an international treaty agreed by the UN. Jewish leaders accepted the plan, while Arab leaders rejected it and attacked Jews, starting a war. They were comprehensively beaten, and ultimately Israel became much larger than was first proposed because of it.

None of that is relevant to the fact that in 2023 Israel were attacked by a foreign government and are retaliating in self defence, though.

'World Central Kitchen team were transferring these supplies to a warehouse a few kilometres further south.
During this process, the IDF says their drone operators spotted a gunman riding on the roof of a large aid lorry that was being escorted by the WCK team. They played those of us at the briefing a somewhat blurry video - which has not been released to the public - showing a figure holding a gun, on top of the lorry. At one point the gun is fired, showing up clearly on the slowed-down black and white footage.'

'The drone footage also appears to confirm that at night, the stickers on the roof of the World Central Kitchen vehicles, with the charity's logo, are not visible to the drone operator.'

'The military then tracks the convoy, including the aid lorry, to a warehouse. Then the convoy splits, with the aid lorry remains in the warehouse, and four SUV-type cars emerge. One of those vehicles heads north, and is then shown to contain gunmen, with weapons clearly visible from the drone footage, as they emerge.'

No doubt it was a mistake that Israel are rightly taking responsibility for, but these excerpts are enough to discount the idea it was a specified and targeted attack against aid workers. The drone operator believed they were dealing with Hamas militants.

What a load of B*****s!

 

[QR]

I don't care what happened in 1948.

What you care about counts for fk all.

From the BBC documentary ....

'This is from a report written by Itzak Levi, who was commander of the Hagannah intelligence services in Jerusalem, dated 12th April 1948, which is three days after it happened. "The conquest of the village was carried out with great brutality. Whole families-women, old people, children-were killed and piles of corpses accumulated. Some of the prisoners taken to places of detention, including women and children were brutal murdered by their guards. Amongst the prisoners was a young mother and baby. The guards killed the baby in front of his mother and after she fainted also murdered her".'

Remind you of anything?

 

[Essexyellows]

Hate to be dull but the neighbours out that way have never really got on.

Different sky fairies and story books you see......

 

[Scotchegg]

Hate to be dull but the neighbours out that way have never really got on.

Different sky fairies and story books you see......

Sadly thousands of babies and children who should have nothing else to worry about than fairies and story books have been murdered by weapons that we pay for, and hundreds of thousands are starving because those who represent us are more worried about their business ties than saving lives.

Makes the religion excuse look pretty pathetic in comparison.

 

[bazzer9461]

'World Central Kitchen team were transferring these supplies to a warehouse a few kilometres further south.
During this process, the IDF says their drone operators spotted a gunman riding on the roof of a large aid lorry that was being escorted by the WCK team. They played those of us at the briefing a somewhat blurry video - which has not been released to the public - showing a figure holding a gun, on top of the lorry. At one point the gun is fired, showing up clearly on the slowed-down black and white footage.'

'The drone footage also appears to confirm that at night, the stickers on the roof of the World Central Kitchen vehicles, with the charity's logo, are not visible to the drone operator.'

'The military then tracks the convoy, including the aid lorry, to a warehouse. Then the convoy splits, with the aid lorry remains in the warehouse, and four SUV-type cars emerge. One of those vehicles heads north, and is then shown to contain gunmen, with weapons clearly visible from the drone footage, as they emerge.'

No doubt it was a mistake that Israel are rightly taking responsibility for, but these excerpts are enough to discount the idea it was a specified and targeted attack against aid workers. The drone operator believed they were dealing with Hamas militants.

And he got it well wrong

 

[Malc]

Time to close this thread. It is for the Ukraine - Russia war.

Go start a separate one for Hamas - Israel

 

[QR]

Hate to be dull but the neighbours out that way have never really got on.

Different sky fairies and story books you see......

Yes but, as we sit in our Safe European Homes drinking wine, or are out for a Friday night pint, if we can't condemned the hundred of thousand of murders across the decades IRRESPECTIVE of whether they are on 'your side' or not it's pretty s**t.