International News Israel Palestine conflict

[chromeyellow]

Anyone who thinks Fourteen thousand dead children is reasonable or that the stare inflicting that has been showing “reasonable precautions „is a monster.

 

[bashamwonderland]

Anyone who thinks Fourteen thousand dead children is reasonable or that the stare inflicting that has been showing “reasonable precautions „is a monster.

Yeah but you can't prove definitively that the kids weren't Hamas fighters so, you know, have at 'em I guess...

(Is probably Mustard Yellows' take)

 

[Essexyellows]

Israel-Gaza war: Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh says three sons killed in air strike

Israel says Ismail Haniyeh's sons were all members of Hamas's military wing.

www.bbc.co.uk

„Israel says“

Think you need better sources than that my old mate- also involved killing his grandchildren

One presumes, relatively safely, that the grandchildren were with his sons?

If his sons are a legitimate target then maybe they should have left the kids elsewhere......... unless they were thinking "We`ll take the kids they won`t target us".

Error of judgement by them.

 

[MustardYellow]

One presumes, relatively safely, that the grandchildren were with his sons?

If his sons are a legitimate target then maybe they should have left the kids elsewhere......... unless they were thinking "We`ll take the kids they won`t target us".

Error of judgement by them.

Yep, and as anyone who understands international law would know, the mere presence of a civilian (yes, even a child), does not make the target illegitimate.

Once again we see Islamists intentionally put civilians/children in harms way and face zero responsibility while the world blames the west and Israel.

 

[MustardYellow]

Yeah but you can't prove definitively that the kids weren't Hamas fighters so, you know, have at 'em I guess...

(Is probably Mustard Yellows' take)

Hamas have a long history of using child soldiers. In 2005 Amnesty International condemned the use of children by Palestinian militant groups saying: "Palestinian armed groups have repeatedly shown total disregard for the most fundamental human rights, notably the right to life, by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians and by using Palestinian children in armed attacks."

I don't recall ever actually saying any child casualties were Hamas militants. I'm not sure where this suggestion has come from..

 

[bashamwonderland]

Hamas have a long history of using child soldiers. In 2005 Amnesty International condemned the use of children by Palestinian militant groups saying: "Palestinian armed groups have repeatedly shown total disregard for the most fundamental human rights, notably the right to life, by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians and by using Palestinian children in armed attacks."

I don't recall ever actually saying any child casualties were Hamas militants. I'm not sure where this suggestion has come from..

It's not a suggestion, more a joke at how eager you are to minimise Israeli war crimes by vaguely alluding to the fact that we don't actually know definitively how many of the 34,000 are Hamas fighters.

You use that allusion to try to justify, or at least question the horror of, the massive numbers of dead Palestinians.

However, you have now moved to suggest that some children might have been Hamas soldiers, by providing an Amnesty International quote from 19 years ago.

 

[BS32]

Why should we or anyone believe any figures quoted by Hamas, a terrorist organisation let,s not forget, I doubt the true figures will ever come to light, I really don,t understand the anti Israel sentiment on this board but also in the media in this country in general, Israel is a democracy surrounded by terrorist groups In Lebanon, Iran, and Palestine, they have every right to eradicate Hamas, now of course I don,t want any innocent families and children killed but this is a war and innocent people will be killed as with any war.
We can hope for a peace deal of course but Hamas have turned the latest one down whilst still holding hostages, they are despicable and it would be nice for a lot more blame for children's deaths aimed at them rather than Israel.

 

[QR]

Why should we or anyone believe any figures quoted by Hamas, a terrorist organisation let,s not forget, I doubt the true figures will ever come to light, I really don,t understand the anti Israel sentiment on this board but also in the media in this country in general, Israel is a democracy surrounded by terrorist groups In Lebanon, Iran, and Palestine, they have every right to eradicate Hamas, now of course I don,t want any innocent families and children killed but this is a war and innocent people will be killed as with any war.
We can hope for a peace deal of course but Hamas have turned the latest one down whilst still holding hostages, they are despicable and it would be nice for a lot more blame for children's deaths aimed at them rather than Israel.

Too much ignorance is a bad thing. What and learn.

The Birth Of Israel: www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00b91vj via @bbciplayer


From the BBC documentary above....

'This is from a report written by Itzak Levi, who was commander of the Hagannah intelligence services in Jerusalem, dated 12th April 1948, which is three days after it happened. "The conquest of the village was carried out with great brutality. Whole families-women, old people, children-were killed and piles of corpses accumulated. Some of the prisoners taken to places of detention, including women and children were brutal murdered by their guards. Amongst the prisoners was a young mother and baby. The guards killed the baby in front of his mother and after she fainted also murdered her".'

Remind you of anything?

 

[MustardYellow]

It's not a suggestion, more a joke at how eager you are to minimise Israeli war crimes by vaguely alluding to the fact that we don't actually know definitively how many of the 34,000 are Hamas fighters.

You use that allusion to try to justify, or at least question the horror of, the massive numbers of dead Palestinians.

However, you have now moved to suggest that some children might have been Hamas soldiers, by providing an Amnesty International quote from 19 years ago.

We don't know how many of the ~34,000 are Hamas militants/members. This is a fact. The figure does not distinguish between militants and civilians.

I merely stated that Hamas and other Palestinian groups have a history of using child soldiers.

 

[BS32]

Too much ignorance is a bad thing. What and learn.

The Birth Of Israel: www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00b91vj via @bbciplayer


From the BBC documentary above....

'This is from a report written by Itzak Levi, who was commander of the Hagannah intelligence services in Jerusalem, dated 12th April 1948, which is three days after it happened. "The conquest of the village was carried out with great brutality. Whole families-women, old people, children-were killed and piles of corpses accumulated. Some of the prisoners taken to places of detention, including women and children were brutal murdered by their guards. Amongst the prisoners was a young mother and baby. The guards killed the baby in front of his mother and after she fainted also murdered her".'

Remind you of anything?

Yes it reminds me of the Hames massacre, beheading mothers and children and laughing whilst they played with their heads so please don,t tell me I,m ignorant, the above could well be correct and I would call that out as barbaric of course but Israel is not doing that now are they, they are operating in a war zone and unfortunately innocent people will be killed.

 

[MustardYellow]

Why should we or anyone believe any figures quoted by Hamas, a terrorist organisation let,s not forget, I doubt the true figures will ever come to light, I really don,t understand the anti Israel sentiment on this board but also in the media in this country in general, Israel is a democracy surrounded by terrorist groups In Lebanon, Iran, and Palestine, they have every right to eradicate Hamas, now of course I don,t want any innocent families and children killed but this is a war and innocent people will be killed as with any war.
We can hope for a peace deal of course but Hamas have turned the latest one down whilst still holding hostages, they are despicable and it would be nice for a lot more blame for children's deaths aimed at them rather than Israel.

People don't like Israel because it's the closest representation of 'the west' that exists in the Middle East. Anyone who has an issue with 'the west' sees Israel as an embodiment of that issue.

It's also because of that that they're held to a higher standard than their enemy, an enemy who has perfected the art of victimhood. Hamas using human shields (a war crime)? No bother. Hamas taking hostages (a ware crime)? Meh, people are over it. Hamas using civilian buildings/areas as places to launch rockets and store weaponry (a war crime)? Who cares? how dare Israel bomb them!

I see lots of people claim they believe in Israel's right to defend themselves, yet simultaneously believe that the second Hamas hides behind civilians they lose the right to do just that. It's incorrect both morally and legally.

 

[m]

People don't like Israel because it's the closest representation of 'the west' that exists in the Middle East. Anyone who has an issue with 'the west' sees Israel as an embodiment of that issue.

Nonsensically paranoid bullshit.

 

[bashamwonderland]

People don't like Israel because it's the closest representation of 'the west' that exists in the Middle East. Anyone who has an issue with 'the west' sees Israel as an embodiment of that issue.

It's also because of that that they're held to a higher standard than their enemy, an enemy who has perfected the art of victimhood. Hamas using human shields (a war crime)? No bother. Hamas taking hostages (a ware crime)? Meh, people are over it. Hamas using civilian buildings/areas as places to launch rockets and store weaponry (a war crime)? Who cares? how dare Israel bomb them!

I see lots of people claim they believe in Israel's right to defend themselves, yet simultaneously believe that the second Hamas hides behind civilians they lose the right to do just that. It's incorrect both morally and legally.

It's exactly right that we hold Israel to a higher standard. They are not only occupiers, but they are backed by billions of dollars of US weaponry. They style themselves as a western democracy, so they should act like a western democracy.

It is possible to criticise Hamas whilst also criticising Israel's destruction of Palestine. Both things are bad.

Your point about "Israel's right to defend itself" is strange. When you invade another land, this is called "attack". When you protect your land, this is called "defend".

There is no "defend" in this scenario. This is an attack.

 

[Marked Ox]

Yes it reminds me of the Hames massacre, beheading mothers and children and laughing whilst they played with their heads so please don,t tell me I,m ignorant, the above could well be correct and I would call that out as barbaric of course but Israel is not doing that now are they, they are operating in a war zone and unfortunately innocent people will be killed.

Israel are stealing Palestinian land in the West Bank through Settlers and Govt Policy* with the military support of the IDF. Detaining 000s Palestinians in the West Bank without charge (so basically hostages) or the few convicted are done in a Military Court (with an impossible 99% conviction rate) where the Palestinians have no rights and iirc no representation. Those Palestinian detainees are tortured physically and mentally. The Settlers with the support of the Israeli Military/Police are killing Palestinians, destroying Palestinian properties and generally intimidating Palestinians to get their land:

There are many other reports of this going back many years. With Palestinians getting shot by the Israeli Military after the Military stood aside whilst the Settlers burn/destroy Palestinian villages/family compounds/crops etc.

Hamas are barbaric but then so is Israel, with this Govt and its military, as they are doing similar things now, and were prior to the Hamas attack.

*The Govt very recently stole a large area of West Bank land and actively supports Settlers:

Israel unveils big West Bank land seizure as Blinken visits

The Israeli government announced Friday it was confiscating 800 hectares of land in the occupied West Bank, which activists called the largest such seizure in decades.

www.france24.com

 

[Marked Ox]

People don't like Israel because it's the closest representation of 'the west' that exists in the Middle East. Anyone who has an issue with 'the west' sees Israel as an embodiment of that issue.

It's also because of that that they're held to a higher standard than their enemy, an enemy who has perfected the art of victimhood. Hamas using human shields (a war crime)? No bother. Hamas taking hostages (a ware crime)? Meh, people are over it. Hamas using civilian buildings/areas as places to launch rockets and store weaponry (a war crime)? Who cares? how dare Israel bomb them!

I see lots of people claim they believe in Israel's right to defend themselves, yet simultaneously believe that the second Hamas hides behind civilians they lose the right to do just that. It's incorrect both morally and legally.

The Israeli Govt has 000s of Palestinian hostages considering they detain them without charge and torture them as well. Both parties are as bad as each other in terms of being barbaric as explained in my post above.

 

[Essexyellows]

Lets face it, the Middle East is a mess that we try and place Western "values" on.

That will never be the case. There is too much history much of which we do not truly understand.

Ironic that when a Middle East state has a strong leader who DOES understand tribal/religious influence the West call them a "dictator" and arrange their removal.

 

[chromeyellow]

One presumes, relatively safely, that the grandchildren were with his sons?

If his sons are a legitimate target then maybe they should have left the kids elsewhere......... unless they were thinking "We`ll take the kids they won`t target us".

Error of judgement by them.

Deliberately Killing Children is a war crime.

The US didn't kill Osama bin Laden's children or grandchildren.

Mustard Gas Yellow seems to be a big fan of war crimes,

He is simultanously claiming that Israel is the closest representative of the west in the Middle East and assrerting the right for Israel to slaughter thousands of children in pursuit of its illegal occupation.

They may be your values, and Netanyahu's values.

They aren't what i have understood to be decent or human values, whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim or atheist.

Anyone defending the killing of thousands of children is a monster.

 

[chromeyellow]

Yep, and as anyone who understands international law would know, the mere presence of a civilian (yes, even a child), does not make the target illegitimate.

Once again we see Islamists intentionally put civilians/children in harms way and face zero responsibility while the world blames the west and Israel.

A Monster.

Israeli defence force offices are in Tel Aviv. So by your argument any children in Tel Aviv are legitimate targeets,

 

[BS32]

Israel are stealing Palestinian land in the West Bank through Settlers and Govt Policy* with the military support of the IDF. Detaining 000s Palestinians in the West Bank without charge (so basically hostages) or the few convicted are done in a Military Court (with an impossible 99% conviction rate) where the Palestinians have no rights and iirc no representation. Those Palestinian detainees are tortured physically and mentally. The Settlers with the support of the Israeli Military/Police are killing Palestinians, destroying Palestinian properties and generally intimidating Palestinians to get their land:

There are many other reports of this going back many years. With Palestinians getting shot by the Israeli Military after the Military stood aside whilst the Settlers burn/destroy Palestinian villages/family compounds/crops etc.

Hamas are barbaric but then so is Israel, with this Govt and its military, as they are doing similar things now, and were prior to the Hamas attack.

*The Govt very recently stole a large area of West Bank land and actively supports Settlers:

Israel unveils big West Bank land seizure as Blinken visits

The Israeli government announced Friday it was confiscating 800 hectares of land in the occupied West Bank, which activists called the largest such seizure in decades.

www.france24.com

I don t think you know any of the above to be 100 percent true, you are quoting the BBC which is/has a very anti Israel viewpoint but look I fully understand your viewpoint.
This is an impossible and often devastating conflict and this current one will last in the memory for generations on both sides.

I fully support Israel and that is my right as equally yours is, I have said previously it is a very devisive subject., think I will stick to the football side of things for now.

 

[Essexyellows]

Deliberately Killing Children is a war crime.

The US didn't kill Osama bin Laden's children or grandchildren.

Mustard Gas Yellow seems to be a big fan of war crimes,

He is simultanously claiming that Israel is the closest representative of the west in the Middle East and assrerting the right for Israel to slaughter thousands of children in pursuit of its illegal occupation.

They may be your values, and Netanyahu's values.

They aren't what i have understood to be decent or human values, whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim or atheist.

Anyone defending the killing of thousands of children is a monster.

Who says it was deliberate? Hamas - the paragons of virtue?

If a vehicle or people are targeted, legitimately, there maybe other casualties. That is the nature of warfare.

ObL was a raid where targets could be selected by trained personnel which is a tad different to a missile/drone strike.