International News Israel Palestine conflict

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To be honest, the whole thing makes me very sad but it's right people have a place to discuss it so it doesn't clog up any other threads.
 
The fact that America put pressure on Israel and they could then immediately open up aid routes proves that they were deliberately stopping aid getting through in the first place. Also that America could have stepped in much earlier to have resolved this.

Hopefully this is a step in the right direction but it's a sad indication of the world we live in that the murder of 7 International aid workers has meant more than the murder of thousands of innocent Palestinian women and children and the destruction of an entire state.

And let's also remember that Israel continue to displace and kill Palestinians in the West Bank which has nothing to do with Hamas.

I hope that we don't only see a ceasefire and aid getting to those who badly need it, but also an International peace force going in to rebuild Gaza and establish a safe haven for the 99% of innocent Palestinians whilst driving out Hamas and their ideology.
 
Takes both sides to make a ceasefire.

All those innocent deaths will only create more hatred, more Hamas fighters, more Israeli hatred of Hamas and more deaths. Rinse & repeat

Who governs it has been going on since Pompey Magnus granted it to Herod the Great

Probably the best solution was the 1947 partition but plenty of parties involved didn`t like that.

Remember you can`t impose the Western ideology of "peace & democracy" on this part of the world - look at the list of disasters The West have been involved in.
 
Scotchegg said:
The fact that America put pressure on Israel and they could then immediately open up aid routes proves that they were deliberately stopping aid getting through in the first place. Also that America could have stepped in much earlier to have resolved this.

Hopefully this is a step in the right direction but it's a sad indication of the world we live in that the murder of 7 International aid workers has meant more than the murder of thousands of innocent Palestinian women and children and the destruction of an entire state.

And let's also remember that Israel continue to displace and kill Palestinians in the West Bank which has nothing to do with Hamas.

I hope that we don't only see a ceasefire and aid getting to those who badly need it, but also an International peace force going in to rebuild Gaza and establish a safe haven for the 99% of innocent Palestinians whilst driving out Hamas and their ideology.
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99% of innocent Palestinians?, a massive percentage of them support Hamas and indeed celebrated the atrocities they carried out, of course we all want peace and the easiest way to achieve that would be the release of the hostages, maybe this is a subject to devisive for a football forum.
 
BS32 said:
99% of innocent Palestinians?, a massive percentage of them support Hamas and indeed celebrated the atrocities they carried out, of course we all want peace and the easiest way to achieve that would be the release of the hostages, maybe this is a subject to devisive for a football forum.
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Gazan Palestinians have been oppressed by Hamas as much as by Israel. There is no place for Hamas, but the idea that you drive them out by killing women and children shows that there is barbaric and backward thinking on both sides.
 
Scotchegg said:
Gazan Palestinians have been oppressed by Hamas as much as by Israel. There is no place for Hamas, but the idea that you drive them out by killing women and children shows that there is barbaric and backward thinking on both sides.
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I agree with you, untold hate on both sides, no easy answers, most conflicts come down to religion at the end of the day.
 
Essexyellows said:
Probably the best solution was the 1947 partition but plenty of parties involved didn`t like that.
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The partition that has been described as ......'one nation giving a second nation the lands of a third nation'.

1. UK
2. Israel
3. Palestine
for those who don't follow this.

Who might also be interested in this
👇

The Birth Of Israel: www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00b91vj via @bbciplayer
 
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BS32 said:
99% of innocent Palestinians?, a massive percentage of them support Hamas and indeed celebrated the atrocities they carried out, of course we all want peace and the easiest way to achieve that would be the release of the hostages, maybe this is a subject to devisive for a football forum.
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'Seventy-two percent of respondents said they believed the Hamas decision to launch the cross-border rampage in southern Israel was "correct"'

This is the crux of the issue for me, and one many people overlook. The international community is asking Israel to aid a population, Hamas and 'civilian', that would largely support their slaughter and destruction.
 
chromeyellow said:
Israel has already killed around 40000 of that population including tens of thousands of women and children.

You cannot and should not punish a civilian population. Israel can’t starve the Palestinians whatever they answered an opinion poll
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I thought the latest figure is 33,000? This tally doesn't distinguish between civilians and combatants though, so we don't know how many of those 33k are Hamas. It's also worth noting that this figure doesn't distinguish between who caused the death. For example, Palestinian civilians killed by a failed Hamas rocket launch would be included in the 33,000 total.

I wouldn't say they're 'punishing' a civilian population. They're just being careful to not fuel their enemy. Unfortunately, when the enemy poses as civilians it's hard to tell the difference.
 
MustardYellow said:
I thought the latest figure is 33,000? This tally doesn't distinguish between civilians and combatants though, so we don't know how many of those 33k are Hamas. It's also worth noting that this figure doesn't distinguish between who caused the death. For example, Palestinian civilians killed by a failed Hamas rocket launch would be included in the 33,000 total.

I wouldn't say they're 'punishing' a civilian population. They're just being careful to not fuel their enemy. Unfortunately, when the enemy poses as civilians it's hard to tell the difference.
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yes Hamas Fighters look exactly like 3 year old children

The vast majority of the deaths are caused by the extremely heavily armed nuclear power which has been pounding the Gaza Strip for six months.

There are plenty of excellent reports - like this on Israeli use of AI has caused such enormous civilian casualties

(although the Israelis don’t allow press into Gaza and have killed nearly 200 journalists)

Israel has always controlled what goes in and out of Gaza - they are using starvation as a weapon. That’s one reason there’s a case of genocide
 
You’re right that the official death toll is 33000 -an estimated 7–10 000 are thought to be under the rubble . All universities have been destroyed. The hospitals & schools are rubble. Ancient churches and mosques have been destroyed 2million people -mostly already refugees -have been refugees again. Gaza is less than a tenth the size of Oxfordshire
 
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MustardYellow said:
I thought the latest figure is 33,000? This tally doesn't distinguish between civilians and combatants though, so we don't know how many of those 33k are Hamas. It's also worth noting that this figure doesn't distinguish between who caused the death. For example, Palestinian civilians killed by a failed Hamas rocket launch would be included in the 33,000 total.

I wouldn't say they're 'punishing' a civilian population. They're just being careful to not fuel their enemy. Unfortunately, when the enemy poses as civilians it's hard to tell the difference.
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The hospital being hit by a Hamas rocket was responsible for, in the words of a US intelligence assessment, "probably at the low end of the 100-300 (deaths) spectrum"

Meanwhile, as mentioned, the 33,000 deaths recorded a few weeks ago were of actual identified bodies. There are thousands that are suspected of being beneath buildings or destroyed beyond all recognition.

And Israel are absolutely punishing a civilian population. They have withheld food, water, medication and destroyed hospitals and bombed schools and refugee camps. Border crossings have been blocked that prevent citizens escaping the war zone and aid from coming in, whilst roads have also been destroyed meaning that what little aid is coming in can't be adequately distributed.

Israel have shot children in the street, they also shot their own citizens who were feeling from hostage sites, as well as bombing other sites where hostages were known to have been held. Add in the killings of aid workers, health workers and journalists, and we are seeing every example of collective punishment imaginable.
 
chromeyellow said:
yes Hamas Fighters look exactly like 3 year old children

The vast majority of the deaths are caused by the extremely heavily armed nuclear power which has been pounding the Gaza Strip for six months.

There are plenty of excellent reports - like this on Israeli use of AI has caused such enormous civilian casualties

(although the Israelis don’t allow press into Gaza and have killed nearly 200 journalists)

Israel has always controlled what goes in and out of Gaza - they are using starvation as a weapon. That’s one reason there’s a case of genocide
Click to expand...

It always amazes me that people always state Israel blockades Gaza but never say a word about Egypt. Israel doesn't surround Gaza on all sides so can't be solely responsible for what goes in and out.
 
BS32 said:
99% of innocent Palestinians?, a massive percentage of them support Hamas and indeed celebrated the atrocities they carried out, of course we all want peace and the easiest way to achieve that would be the release of the hostages, maybe this is a subject to devisive for a football forum.
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Have you seen any of the polls from Israel on Palestinians?
 
Followtheox1 said:
It always amazes me that people always state Israel blockades Gaza but never say a word about Egypt. Israel doesn't surround Gaza on all sides so can't be solely responsible for what goes in and out.
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It's the Rafah crossing and there is an agreement between Egypt and Israel that means that Israel must approve all imports. Also, Israel bombed the Palestinian side of the crossing in the days after the 7/10 attack.

To this end, Israel are solely responsible for what goes in and out.
 
Scotchegg said:
It's the Rafah crossing and there is an agreement between Egypt and Israel that means that Israel must approve all imports. Also, Israel bombed the Palestinian side of the crossing in the days after the 7/10 attack.

To this end, Israel are solely responsible for what goes in and out.
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I'm not talking just about the time from 7th October. As you say, Israel has an agreement with Egypt. Egypt an independent country has chosen to enter an agreement regarding its border with Gaza. To that end it always amazes me that nobody talks about an Egyptian blockade. Clearly Israeli are not solely responsible, as you have pointed out. Why don't people talk about an Egyptian blockade as well? Israel has a lot to answer for but they are not responsible on their own for a blockade of a territory that they don't solely border.
 
Followtheox1 said:
I'm not talking just about the time from 7th October. As you say, Israel has an agreement with Egypt. Egypt an independent country has chosen to enter an agreement regarding its border with Gaza. To that end it always amazes me that nobody talks about an Egyptian blockade. Clearly Israeli are not solely responsible, as you have pointed out. Why don't people talk about an Egyptian blockade as well? Israel has a lot to answer for but they are not responsible on their own for a blockade of a territory that they don't solely border.
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There is long history over this and goes back to the 6 day war that was officially between Israel and Egypt/Syria/Jordan but was fuelled by the UK and US wanting control over Suez.

The peace deal that was eventually agreed created a buffer zone between the Egyptian/Israel (Gaza) border at the Rafah crossing. The land mass has changed since then with Gaza being increasingly cut off and Israel establishing greater control over any exports/imports.

I'm not pretending that this isn't a hugely complex situation, but Israel still pulls many of the strings in the region and had the military and political support of the West to do so. Egypt were unable to simply open the border and let aid through even without the Israeli bombardment on the Gazan side, and this has been no different for decades.
 
Scotchegg said:
There is long history over this and goes back to the 6 day war that was officially between Israel and Egypt/Syria/Jordan but was fuelled by the UK and US wanting control over Suez.

The peace deal that was eventually agreed created a buffer zone between the Egyptian/Israel (Gaza) border at the Rafah crossing. The land mass has changed since then with Gaza being increasingly cut off and Israel establishing greater control over any exports/imports.

I'm not pretending that this isn't a hugely complex situation, but Israel still pulls many of the strings in the region and had the military and political support of the West to do so. Egypt were unable to simply open the border and let aid through even without the Israeli bombardment on the Gazan side, and this has been no different for decades.
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I know the situation very well, I have lots of family in the region
I have been there many times. Legally and technically, Egypt partakes in this blockade. My view is pressure should be put on both Israel and Egypt in regard to Gaza. My view is that the Egyptian government is vehemently opposed to the Muslim Brotherhood and in turn Hamas. Egypt do not want that border open fully and not just because of their relationship with the US and Israel.
 
Scotchegg said:
The hospital being hit by a Hamas rocket was responsible for, in the words of a US intelligence assessment, "probably at the low end of the 100-300 (deaths) spectrum"

Meanwhile, as mentioned, the 33,000 deaths recorded a few weeks ago were of actual identified bodies. There are thousands that are suspected of being beneath buildings or destroyed beyond all recognition.

And Israel are absolutely punishing a civilian population. They have withheld food, water, medication and destroyed hospitals and bombed schools and refugee camps. Border crossings have been blocked that prevent citizens escaping the war zone and aid from coming in, whilst roads have also been destroyed meaning that what little aid is coming in can't be adequately distributed.

Israel have shot children in the street, they also shot their own citizens who were feeling from hostage sites, as well as bombing other sites where hostages were known to have been held. Add in the killings of aid workers, health workers and journalists, and we are seeing every example of collective punishment imaginable.
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That's one example. It's estimated between 10-15% of all rockets Hamas have attempted to launch into Israel have fallen short and landed in Gaza, which equates to thousands. It's impossible to know many Palestinians have been killed by these, because unsurprisingly Hamas aren't keeping record of it, but instead adding those deaths onto the tally we see reported daily. And, again, that tally doesn't differentiate between Hamas militants and civilians.

Israel are entitled to bomb schools, hospitals etc if they are being used by the enemy for military purposes. It's looking like this whole situation will be reviewed by the ICJ. When the time comes, if Israel can produce evidence of the sites you mentioned being used by the enemy for military purposes, or to gain a military advantage, they will be cleared of wrongdoing.

Regardless of which side of the issue you fall though, the biggest sticking point is proving intent. If you believe Israel are intentionally starving a civilian population for example, can it be proven? Israel will almost certainly say any delay to the process of getting aid into Gaza was a matter of security, not an unwillingness to feed civilians. Unless this can be proven otherwise with actual proof, not just people's opinions, then it's a non-starter in international courts.
 
MustardYellow said:
That's one example. It's estimated between 10-15% of all rockets Hamas have attempted to launch into Israel have fallen short and landed in Gaza, which equates to thousands. It's impossible to know many Palestinians have been killed by these, because unsurprisingly Hamas aren't keeping record of it, but instead adding those deaths onto the tally we see reported daily. And, again, that tally doesn't differentiate between Hamas militants and civilians.

Israel are entitled to bomb schools, hospitals etc if they are being used by the enemy for military purposes. It's looking like this whole situation will be reviewed by the ICJ. When the time comes, if Israel can produce evidence of the sites you mentioned being used by the enemy for military purposes, or to gain a military advantage, they will be cleared of wrongdoing.

Regardless of which side of the issue you fall though, the biggest sticking point is proving intent. If you believe Israel are intentionally starving a civilian population for example, can it be proven? Israel will almost certainly say any delay to the process of getting aid into Gaza was a matter of security, not an unwillingness to feed civilians. Unless this can be proven otherwise with actual proof, not just people's opinions, then it's a non-starter in international courts.
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this is not true. the Occupying power has an absolute duty to ensure that the people it controls have enough to eat.

israeli historian Ilan Pappe talks about the history of Gaza

 
chromeyellow said:
this is not true. the Occupying power has an absolute duty to ensure that the people it controls have enough to eat.

israeli historian Ilan Pappe talks about the history of Gaza

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Israel had no military presence in Gaza prior to the war, and it has it's own government and government agencies. It was not 'under the authority of a hostile army'. Gaza isn't occupied.
 
I didn't say under the authority of a hostile army. but it is clearly under israeli control in law and in fact. Israel withdrew its settlements in Gaza but continues to determine who can go in and out. (Israel destroyed the Gaza airport) it also regularly shoots demonstrators at the border
 
chromeyellow said:
I didn't say under the authority of a hostile army. but it is clearly under israeli control in law and in fact. Israel withdrew its settlements in Gaza but continues to determine who can go in and out. (Israel destroyed the Gaza airport) it also regularly shoots demonstrators at the border
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Israel are perfectly entitled to control who enters their country, as are Egypt who also restrict movement across the border. Those are the only 2 countries Gaza shares a border with - is the expectation that Israel and Egypt should just allow any and all Palestinians to move freely into their countries?
 
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