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[holdsteady]

It is estimated that a couple of thousand women wear the Burka in the UK. We would be better have a debate on whether or not we should ban a Wycombe shirt.

Really, a couple of thousand women are not worthy of discussion? What’s the cutoff point.

 

[Londox]

That dog whistle works every time!

Ah, implying people with differing views are racist, but then taking great offence at the use of the terminology "the left", a YF classic!

It's genuinely insane to me how a debate about the Burqa, which is banned in several European countries and a fairly mainstream view of many it is oppressive to women, is somehow a "dog whistle"



It's so tedious how you can't question immigration or islam without somebody implying, subtly or not, you're a racist.

 

[Scotchegg]

Ah, implying people with differing views are racist, but then taking great offence at the use of the terminology "the left", a YF classic!

It's genuinely insane to me how a debate about the Burqa, which is banned in several European countries and a fairly mainstream view of many it is oppressive to women, is somehow a "dog whistle"

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It's so tedious how you can't question immigration or islam without somebody implying, subtly or not, you're a racist.

Nothing subtle about it. I think you hold views that many would deem to be ignorant at best, racist or xenophobic at worst.

 

[Londox]

Nothing subtle about it. I think you hold views that many would deem to be ignorant at best, racist or xenophobic at worst.

Ok. I think you're an arrogant person who doesn't care about women's rights, who consistently talks down his nose at people.

 

[Scotchegg]

Ok. I think you're an arrogant person who doesn't care about women's rights, who consistently talks down his nose at people.

I absolutely do care about women's rights, but the rest is your view which you're entitled to.

 

[Londox]

I absolutely do care about women's rights, but the rest is your view which you're entitled to.

You're entitled to your view to but you're absolutely dead wrong. I really dislike the way you are so condescending in the way you post.

 

[holdsteady]

I absolutely do care about women's rights, but the rest is your view which you're entitled to.

What’s your views on women being completely covered up?

 

[Londox]

What’s your views on women being completely covered up?

@Scotchegg doesn't actually care. Does he? He'd rather score points for looking like a good person.

 

[Scotchegg]

What’s your views on women being completely covered up?

Research suggests that many choose to do this, and they should be allowed to do so if a free society.

Those who are pressured into wearing full covering, and there will obviously be some that are, need more protection that simply banning the clothing. There is a risk that we actually make these people more vulnerable, or cut them off society even further.

As with so many things, this is far more nuanced than a soundbyte from those who are trying to appease those who are anti-islam.

 

[holdsteady]

Research suggests that many choose to do this, and they should be allowed to do so if a free society.

Those who are pressured into wearing full covering, and there will obviously be some that are, need more protection that simply banning the clothing. There is a risk that we actually make these people more vulnerable, or cut them off society even further.

As with so many things, this is far more nuanced than a soundbyte from those who are trying to appease those who are anti-islam.

It must be s**t though, on a personal level, to walk around like that? I think you could make a strong argument that anyone choosing to do it has been coerced given how uncomfortable a way it is to live?

And it’s only the women who are wearing it so no real argument that it’s not sexist.

I have no problem with women wearing headscarves etc, I sometimes wear a hat, I can see how that could be a free choice but not really certain anyone really would choose to wear the full covering garb.

So from a moral standpoint I don’t agree with women completely covering their faces, I don’t think it has any place in a civilised society.

 

[Scotchegg]

It must be s**t though, on a personal level, to walk around like that? I think you could make a strong argument that anyone choosing to do it has been coerced given how uncomfortable a way it is to live?

And it’s only the women who are wearing it so no real argument that it’s not sexist.

I have no problem with women wearing headscarves etc, I sometimes wear a hat, I can see how that could be a free choice but not really certain anyone really would choose to wear the full covering garb.

So from a moral standpoint I don’t agree with women completely covering their faces, I don’t think it has any place in a civilised society.

I'm not a fan of anyone wearing a full face covering, especially those who wear those f*cking snoods.

But there's a difference between not liking something and actively looking to get it banned. Especially when those who seem to be most vocally against this are also those who constantly scream about freedom of speech, so why not freedom of expression too?

It seems like you can say anything you like because "hurty words" are silly. But someone wearing something we dont like should be banned?

 

[Londox]

I'm not a fan of anyone wearing a full face covering, especially those who wear those f*cking snoods.

But there's a difference between not liking something and actively looking to get it banned. Especially when those who seem to be most vocally against this are also those who constantly scream about freedom of speech, so why not freedom of expression too?

It seems like you can say anything you like because "hurty words" are silly. But someone wearing something we dont like should be banned?

It is banned in several European countries. Stop acting like it's some radical idea or dog whistle to think women shouldn't be totally covered up in a controlling way.

I don't think it has a place in a civilised society. It looks overly controlling. I'm lucky I am not one of those women who feels obliged to wear one.

 

[Marston Road Yellow]

I’m going to that place where I will be called an anti semite

Why should we ban a burka rather than ban a ceremony where a non medic removes part of a baby’s body as a ceremonial process?

I’m just wondering as one is barbaric and the other may well be the choice of the person involved.

 

[tonyw]

It must be s**t though, on a personal level, to walk around like that? I think you could make a strong argument that anyone choosing to do it has been coerced given how uncomfortable a way it is to live?

I went to college with a British woman of Saudi decent - she certainly didn't ever wear the niqab or burqa in the UK, but she used to dread going back to Saudi Arabia to visit family because (in her own words) - "Every time I want to go out in public, I have to wear a f*****g tent"

That being said, I still come down on Scotchers' side of the argument, although more because I'm a bit of a free speech absolutist, and I don't think it's the government's job to be regulating what we can and cannot wear.

Are there women who are coerced into wearing such clothing against their will? Undoubtedly, and it's important that the country has resources through which they can seek help. But there are also plenty of women who wear it because they are committed believers and followers of Islam. And to assume that every woman who wears the niqab or burqa falls in the first camp but not the second is patronising nanny state-ism.

And yeah, the French do it - but the French are secular fanatics!

 

[QR]

How many people on here would like to be forced, coerced or just feel pressured to wear a full covering from head to toe that just shows your eyes? For the reason that some very likely made up deity passed on a message to a man in a desert 1300 years ago about feminine modesty that has been interpreted by other men over the years to mean that they have to be covered up in a sheet.

It seems that in the top trumps of political correctness women’s rights comes below Islam.

I think you've just made the case for banning all religions. I'm with you on that. It's all made up bs with the objective of controlling people in one way or another.

Goes and gets tin hat.

 

[Marston Road Yellow]

I think we should ban mini skirts just in case any woman is forced to wear one by her controlling husband, same with crop tops, and long hair.

 

[holdsteady]

I think you've just made the case for banning all religions. I'm with you on that. It's all made up bs with the objective of controlling people in one way or another.

Goes and gets tin hat.

I agree with you about the made up and controlling bit, just never seen the point in banning them as people will just replace them with even wackier shite to believe in.

 

[holdsteady]

I went to college with a British woman of Saudi decent - she certainly didn't ever wear the niqab or burqa in the UK, but she used to dread going back to Saudi Arabia to visit family because (in her own words) - "Every time I want to go out in public, I have to wear a f*****g tent"

That being said, I still come down on Scotchers' side of the argument, although more because I'm a bit of a free speech absolutist, and I don't think it's the government's job to be regulating what we can and cannot wear.

Are there women who are coerced into wearing such clothing against their will? Undoubtedly, and it's important that the country has resources through which they can seek help. But there are also plenty of women who wear it because they are committed believers and followers of Islam. And to assume that every woman who wears the niqab or burqa falls in the first camp but not the second is patronising nanny state-ism.

And yeah, the French do it - but the French are secular fanatics!

I have only ever met two Saudis, an attractive, friendly female student in a two piece bikini in a steam room in my early 20s (thinking on it very friendly, so my already terrible ability to read the signs may have been hampered further by the steam) and a bloke in his fifties in the Pride of Paddington who bought me a pint (he wasn’t that friendly though so was probably just platonic, either that or I am just irresistible to Saudi Arabians) and neither of those obviously fitted the stereotype, they obviously live a very different life when they get the freedom to, can’t say I blame them.

 

[holdsteady]

I think we should ban mini skirts just in case any woman is forced to wear one by her controlling husband, same with crop tops, and long hair.

This is just nonsense.

 

[Londox]

I think you've just made the case for banning all religions. I'm with you on that. It's all made up bs with the objective of controlling people in one way or another.

Goes and gets tin hat.

It's not perfect but Buddhism contains some practices which are essentially being offered by the NHS like mindfulness now.

It's also a religion which has attracted very minimal extremism over centuries.

I do slightly agree with you. But it's like football in a way, 90% of fans follow a team peacefully and 10% are hooligans and sometimes people paint all football fans as hooligans!

 

[holdsteady]

It's not perfect but Buddhism contains some practices which are essentially being offered by the NHS like mindfulness now.

It's also a religion which has attracted very minimal extremism over centuries.

I do slightly agree with you. But it's like football in a way, 90% of fans follow a team peacefully and 10% are hooligans and sometimes people paint all football fans as hooligans!

More of a way to live your life than a religion isn’t it? Absolutely no expert but they don’t get to arsed if you don’t follow it that strictly? Or that might be the Church of England nowadays, just happy if you turn up.

 

[Scotchegg]

There have been numerous Buddhist conflicts over the years. Sri Lanka in particular amongst extremist Buddhist groups.

 

[Londox]

There have been numerous Buddhist conflicts over the years. Sri Lanka in particular amongst extremist Buddhist groups.

Buddhism as a religion is like Forest Green Rovers fans in a league against Millwall, West Ham, Leeds United, Cardiff, Birmingham and Portsmouth.

 

[Marston Road Yellow]

This is just nonsense.

I know banning clothes because some people are upset when others wear them.

You call it nonsense but cannot defend why it’s nonsense. Every argument you have about a Burka could equally be used with a mini skirt.

Prove me wrong

 

[holdsteady]

I know banning clothes because some people are upset when others wear them.

You call it nonsense but cannot defend why it’s nonsense. Every argument you have about a Burka could equally be used with a mini skirt.

Prove me wrong

Pretty certain you can see someone’s face when they are wearing a miniskirt? Don’t think there are any religions or cultures that demand you wear a miniskirt?

I mean you probably have far more cases of women being banned from wearing a miniskirt skirt by jealous husbands than being made to wear them.

 

[Scotchegg]

Pretty certain you can see someone’s face when they are wearing a miniskirt? Don’t think there are any religions or cultures that demand you wear a miniskirt?

I mean you probably have far more cases of women being banned from wearing a miniskirt skirt by jealous husbands than being made to wear them.

If this is about national security then there should be far greater clamour to ban ALL face coverings. No one has mentioned balaclavas, masks or snoods which represent far greater links to criminality and anti-social behaviour.

If this is about religious expression, then look across all denominations. Orthodox Jews, Mormons, Buddhists, Nuns - all have restricted, and arguably oppressive, clothing.

If this is about control and cohesion, then tackle those responsible for it (predominantly men) rather than targeting those who are victims to this behaviour, and doing this where ever it is seen and not restricted to one very small group.

But if this is just about the Burka, then it feels that there is a racist/Islamaphobic undertone to this.

 

[chuckbert]

There are some weird interpretations of women’s rights on this thread. Apparently stipulating in law what women may or may not wear is promoting their rights?
Well intentioned blokes telling women what to wear is not “women’s rights”. Self determination is. Supporting women to be able to choose what they wear and opposing any coercion is the British approach. Not banning clothes.

 

[holdsteady]

There are some weird interpretations of women’s rights on this thread. Apparently stipulating in law what women may or may not wear is promoting their rights?
Well intentioned blokes telling women what to wear is not “women’s rights”. Self determination is. Supporting women to be able to choose what they wear and opposing any coercion is the British approach. Not banning clothes.

Do you think some of the women who wear burkas have a lot of say? If you think people in here have far right views you should meet the husbands of those women, they believe that women should be completely veiled from head to toe and impose that on them.

Even just as a belief system, whether the women chooses to or not, I find the idea that women need to be covered from sight pretty horrible, but then I don’t have to square the circle and play liberal top trumps, because there is no way some of you supporting wearing burkas would be doing this if it was an English, white, Christian thing, you would be all out against it.

 

[carefreeoufc]

I went to college with a British woman of Saudi decent - she certainly didn't ever wear the niqab or burqa in the UK, but she used to dread going back to Saudi Arabia to visit family because (in her own words) - "Every time I want to go out in public, I have to wear a f*****g tent"

That being said, I still come down on Scotchers' side of the argument, although more because I'm a bit of a free speech absolutist, and I don't think it's the government's job to be regulating what we can and cannot wear.

Are there women who are coerced into wearing such clothing against their will? Undoubtedly, and it's important that the country has resources through which they can seek help. But there are also plenty of women who wear it because they are committed believers and followers of Islam. And to assume that every woman who wears the niqab or burqa falls in the first camp but not the second is patronising nanny state-ism.

And yeah, the French do it - but the French are secular fanatics!

I spend quite a bit of time in Saudi and the Middle East. Whilst not a face covering, the vast majority of Saudi men wear their own version of a ‘tent’.

The thawb covers almost the entire body and is usually coupled with a ghutra headdress. The condition of the thawb and ghutra is considered very important, Saudis will look down on those who are wearing one that is unironed, dirty or damaged.

In recent years I’ve seen an increase of Saudi women wearing more modern/western clothes (still very modest) but the vast majority continue to wear forms of entire body coverings (and face).

Anyway, back to immigration and security. Very unlikely to see many Saudis arrive on boats! Plenty heading to Bicester Village though.

 

[chuckbert]

Do you think some of the women who wear burkas have a lot of say? If you think people in here have far right views you should meet the husbands of those women, they believe that women should be completely veiled from head to toe and impose that on them.

Even just as a belief system, whether the women chooses to or not, I find the idea that women need to be covered from sight pretty horrible, but then I don’t have to square the circle and play liberal top trumps, because there is no way some of you supporting wearing burkas would be doing this if it was an English, white, Christian thing, you would be all out against it.

You’re entitled to your opinion, just not to impose it on others. Regarding your last point, you’ve got it wrong - the “libs” aren’t the cancel culture here. I bet there is a much bigger overlap of those who complain about women wearing veils with those who complain about western women dressing immodestly.