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[SteMerritt]

The statues belonging to figures of bad crimes? I hope the historians are ready with there facts because never there are a lot note than people think , will Scotland remove the William Wallace statue because he massacres the Englushband was very brutal when attacking the North of England. Where does this end?

Once again, I asked EY because he was talking about the levelling of monuments or removal of monuments being not done because people forget, so I asked where he stood on that. For the point he was making, I wanted to know if that instance was different, and if so, why.

 

[QR]

That’s a bit out of order. An opinion doesn’t make racism

I said - Colston didn't set out thinking 'hum, if I get involved in the salve trade I can use the money I earn to help the good people of Bristol'.

EY said - How do you know Colston didn`t think like that?

To some that could sound like a racist clutching at straws. So I said 'be careful'.

What's the problem?

 

[bazzer9461]

Once again, I asked EY because he was talking about the levelling of monuments or removal of monuments being not done because people forget, so I asked where he stood on that. For the point he was making, I wanted to know if that instance was different, and if so, why.

My post about statues I think is what should happen, with the Colston and Rhodes statues people new about their pasts but back then nominees bothered because they probably thought it was ok, but now in the 20th century people knew what’s it’s about and should have had the guts to deal with it, but with the nonce Saville no one knew of his crimes but when they came to light action was taken, just surprised Michael Jackson’s statue Is still standing at Fulham .

 

[Oxt1]

Once again, I asked EY because he was talking about the levelling of monuments or removal of monuments being not done because people forget, so I asked where he stood on that. For the point he was making, I wanted to know if that instance was different, and if so, why.

My opinion and wont put words in EYs mouth, but in your example you are comparing somebody who was judged against the laws, morals and sensibilities comparable to their lifetime, and the discussion has been based predominately on historical characters and their activities, which at the time were not illegal and in their views not even immoral at the time, so a potentially flawed comparison.

 

[YellowTaxi]

The statue glorifying Colston -who enslaved an estimated 80000 people - with an estimated 20000 dying or being murdered en Route was erected in 1895.

It was an attempt to whitewash his crimes and how wealth came to the City. The same people who put the statue up have been trying to prevent it being taken down or having a plaque describing the nature of his activities

To compare putting up a statue to a slave trader 200 years afterwards to Auschwitz which was kept standing as evidence of the Holocaust and as a memorial to the dead or to Mandela is simply mind blowing in its horror.

 

[SteMerritt]

My opinion and wont put words in EYs mouth, but in your example you are comparing somebody who was judged against the laws, morals and sensibilities comparable to their lifetime, and the discussion has been based predominately on historical characters and their activities, which at the time were not illegal and in their views not even immoral at the time, so a potentially flawed comparison.

Yeah I get your points. The Savile question was to a specific thing EY said. It was right to remove them, unquestionably.

 

[bazzer9461]

I said - Colston didn't set out thinking 'hum, if I get involved in the salve trade I can use the money I earn to help the good people of Bristol'.

EY said - How do you know Colston didn`t think like that?

To some that could sound like a racist clutching at straws. So I said 'be careful'.

What's the problem?

Because you are trying to portray EY as a racist, I don’t know EY other than in here but he is making his point. Trust me if I thought he was sounding racist or was being racist I would let him know.Personally I don’t think Colston thought “ I know I will deal in slaves an re-invest in Bristol “ but he may have or he may have been aghast at what he has done and so invested the money into Bristol.
Just hope Bristol City Council knew there predecessors knew where money was coming from to do yo their city, and will Bristol City now remove all reference to Colston.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

Hate to say it @Sheik djibouti thats what he was being called Ge rightly opposed apartheid but as there was violence involved from the ANC it was called terrorism,
Like the Catholic’s calling the British go to for help in Northern Ireland then when it came they turned in the British so then we ha d two armed militias the IRA and the UDA stacking one another and tmwhile they were at it have a go at the British soldiers, different to the anti apartheid actions but similar actions, but a big difference is we knew who the IRA and UDA leaders were and where they were.
It’s all oppression and it’s something that will go on and on no matter where.
But I still can’t get over why now why not decades ago people knew about those historic figures and yes we maybe in a generation of bloody snow flakes.
As I said previously take the offending statues down with no publicity and place them in a museum for historical reasons.

Saying that Afrikanas and the South African government of the time (among others) viewed Mandela as a terrorist is one thing, but Essex actually said, "I think Mandela was a terrorist" - it's there in post #416.....

 

[bazzer9461]

Saying that Afrikanas and the South African government of the time (among others) viewed Mandela as a terrorist is one thing, but Essex actually said, "I think Mandela was a terrorist" - it's there in post #416.....

Unfortunately that would have been the term used for Mandela at the time as he was trying to start armed uprising same as when theIRA and UDA started initially the Republicans asked for our help then turned on the British army so they became terrorists Palestinians became terrorist because they were oppressed by Israel.
such a mess

 

[stokeu]

That’s a bit out of order. An opinion doesn’t make racism

An opinion absolutely makes racism. Nothing else

 

[m]

How do you know Colston didn`t think like that? It was a time of active campaigning against slavery in his later years, ever considered that is why he used his money how he did?

Come on!

I know you enjoy the agent provocateur role but really?

Colson traded slaves so he could afford to campaign against slavery?!

 

[Sheik djibouti]

Unfortunately that would have been the term used for Mandela at the time as he was trying to start armed uprising same as when theIRA and UDA started initially the Republicans asked for our help then turned on the British army so they became terrorists Palestinians became terrorist because they were oppressed by Israel.
such a mess

Sorry Baz - not disputing how history has categorised any of those organisations, but it was the use of present (ie - I think), rather than past tense (I thought) that made the comment stand out. IE I STILL think Mandela was a terrorist....not even Thatcher labelled him as a terrorist (despite the popular myth).

 

[Pete Burrett]

Unfortunately that would have been the term used for Mandela at the time as he was trying to start armed uprising same as when theIRA and UDA started initially the Republicans asked for our help then turned on the British army so they became terrorists Palestinians became terrorist because they were oppressed by Israel.
such a mess

I realised I didn't have an understanding of who was (and wasn't) a terrorist, so looked it up:

A person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

Mandela was a terrorist based on that definition. Whether you feel his actions were justified given the situation in South Africa at the time is another matter, and perhaps a question of personal interpretation.

 

[YellowTaxi]

A group of citizens took down a statue of a man who made vast sums of money from enslaving and killing his fellow men. A statue which had little historical or artistic merit was erected 170 years after the bloke in question died and which attempted to hide something which i would have thought everyone on this board would think is bad.

Somehow certain people on this board are still desperately trying to change the subject.
Mandela. UK Universities taking money from China. Maybe Colson wanted to stop slavery by being a slaver.

you're like those sad blokes who tried to fish it out of the water

 

[stokeu]

The statue glorifying Colston -who enslaved an estimated 80000 people - with an estimated 20000 dying or being murdered en Route was erected in 1895.

It was an attempt to whitewash his crimes and how wealth came to the City. The same people who put the statue up have been trying to prevent it being taken down or having a plaque describing the nature of his activities

To compare putting up a statue to a slave trader 200 years afterwards to Auschwitz which was kept standing as evidence of the Holocaust and as a memorial to the dead or to Mandela is simply mind blowing in its horror.

Must be the oldest people in Britain, maybe the world.....

 

[RyanioBirdio]

Colson traded slaves so he could afford to campaign against slavery?!

I stopped smoking so I could save up and use the money to buy cigarettes. I also used to throw rubbish out the window of my car so that I could use it as evidence for there being a litter problem in my town, so I could then campaign to clean it up.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

I realised I didn't have an understanding of who was (and wasn't) a terrorist, so looked it up:

A person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

Mandela was a terrorist based on that definition. Whether you feel his actions were justified given the situation in South Africa at the time is another matter, and perhaps a question of personal interpretation.

This is the bit I guess most will struggle with. Unlawful in terms of the laws imposed under Apartheid by a White Supremecist Regime, yes, so in the eyes of South African law of the time, yes. But fighting for the right casue and therefore justified as a last resort?

But then I guess you can characterise ANY opposing force using unlawful violence (unlawful as defined by the sovereign laws of which ever state you happen to be active in)....depends at which level you wish to define unlawful.

And take out the word unlawful from that definition and it probably aptly describes the actions of many many governments since....well, forever!

After all - who makes the laws?

 

[bazzer9461]

An opinion absolutely makes racism. Nothing else

Whatever

 

[Pete Burrett]

This is the bit I guess most will struggle with. Unlawful in terms of the laws imposed under Apartheid by a White Supremecist Regime, yes, so in the eyes of South African law of the time, yes. But fighting for the right casue and therefore justified as a last resort?

But then I guess you can characterise ANY opposing force using unlawful violence (unlawful as defined by the sovereign laws of which ever state you happen to be active in)....depends at which level you wish to define unlawful.

.... and who you're talking to. I was at university with a (black) Rhodesian called Dave Chitambo 1974-1977. I was not interested in politics at the time, but grasped the concept that white minority rule in a country where all but 250,000 people were black was 'wrong'. Dave reacted badly when I described the ANC as 'terrorists'. He insisted they were 'freedom fighters', and that's stuck with me. No doubt innocent people died as a result of ANC action, but difficult to fault their intentions.

 

[bazzer9461]

Sorry Baz - not disputing how history has categorised any of those organisations, but it was the use of present (ie - I think), rather than past tense (I thought) that made the comment stand out. IE I STILL think Mandela was a terrorist....not even Thatcher labelled him as a terrorist (despite the popular myth).

Well when thatcher was in I think he had been locked up for a number of years by which time punlic opinion changed from a person who is at the frontnofn( at the time ) labelled terrorist to someone who had become a very public figure and it still took some tear for him to be released but at least F.W. de Klerk did the right thing and release him. Yes Mandela WAS (past tense) a terrorist,
I think gramma has come into it, everyone says things in the wrong tense land yes it reverberates.