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[bazzer9461]

Again you completely miss the point.

Yes, slavery is 100% wrong, it still goes on today, but it is 100% wrong.

Mandela thought nothing of people dying to get to the end goal, same as Colston.

In his latter years he spoke out against what he and others did, similar actions by Colston as he endowed his wealth for the benefit of others.

We can not deny it happened........... what next? Forget the Holocaust because it was uncomfortable?

It`s how we evolve and learn that defines us so leave the history alone and tell the whole story warts and all.

Well written

 

[Sheik djibouti]

Again you completely miss the point.

Yes, slavery is 100% wrong, it still goes on today, but it is 100% wrong.

Mandela thought nothing of people dying to get to the end goal, same as Colston.

In his latter years he spoke out against what he and others did, similar actions by Colston as he endowed his wealth for the benefit of others.

We can not deny it happened........... what next? Forget the Holocaust because it was uncomfortable?

It`s how we evolve and learn that defines us so leave the history alone and tell the whole story warts and all.

The fundamental difference being that one was doing it to perpetuate oppression of other Human Beings and the other was doing it to rescue fellow Human Beings from their oppressors...and as those oppressors would not stop the oppression themselves, nor listen to those who wanted it stopped, what choice did they have?

 

[SteMerritt]

We can not deny it happened........... what next? Forget the Holocaust because it was uncomfortable?

What a bizarre leap of logic that was, even for you!

NOBODY is saying 'let's forget slavery ever happened'

 

[Pete Burrett]

If you take down monuments to evildoers people will forget the dark parts of history, which is why nobody knows who Hitler was.

 

[Essexyellows]

The fundamental difference being that one was doing it to perpetuate oppression of other Human Beings and the other was doing it to rescue fellow Human Beings from their oppressors...and as those oppressors would not stop the oppression themselves, nor listen to those who wanted it stopped, what choice did they have?

Depends how you define oppression.............. we are all slaves to money and that is just numbers on a spreadsheet.....

 

[QR]

Again you completely miss the point.

Yes, slavery is 100% wrong, it still goes on today, but it is 100% wrong.

Mandela thought nothing of people dying to get to the end goal, same as Colston.

In his latter years he spoke out against what he and others did, similar actions by Colston as he endowed his wealth for the benefit of others.

We can not deny it happened........... what next? Forget the Holocaust because it was uncomfortable?

It`s how we evolve and learn that defines us so leave the history alone and tell the whole story warts and all.

Are you serious?? Mandela's 'end goal' was freedom for black South Africans. Colston's 'end goal' was wealth for himself. He didn't set out thinking 'hum, if I get involved in the salve trade I can use the money I earn to help the good people of Bristol'.

Who's saying we should deny any of this happened? You are making up an argument that isn't there.

 

[Essexyellows]

What a bizarre leap of logic that was, even for you!

NOBODY is saying 'let's forget slavery ever hapoened'

By removing the reminders people forget history................. why not just level Auschwitz? Its just a reminder of a killing machine..or a memorial to the dead. Depends how you look at things really.

Roman bath house in town, built by enslaved Britons, leave it or flatten it?

Preservation of physical history is as important as anything else.

 

[bazzer9461]

If you take down monuments to evildoers people will forget the dark parts of history, which is why nobody knows who Hitler was.

But there are those who want Churchill’s statue in Whitehall bloody snow flakes he is a big part of the U.K. history obviously any statue of Hitler or his inner circle of monsters would be a sick gesture but why wasn’t all this discussed in the 69’s or 79’s or whenever, it’s the snowflake brigade maybe some statues should be replaced by the likes of Mickey Mouse and iron man but as Lalyla Moran ( and I don’t have liking for the woman ) says put them in a museum so people of all faiths and creeds especially children can go to these museums and find out about the history of the world.
Not as some would want and confine it to a history which didn’t exist.

 

[Essexyellows]

Are you serious?? Mandela's 'end goal' was freedom for black South Africans. Colston's 'end goal' was wealth for himself. He didn't set out thinking 'hum, if I get involved in the salve trade I can use the money I earn to help the good people of Bristol'.

Who's saying we should deny any of this happened? You are making up an argument that isn't there.

How do you know Colston didn`t think like that? It was a time of active campaigning against slavery in his later years, ever considered that is why he used his money how he did?

 

[SteMerritt]

By removing the reminders people forget history................. why not just level Auschwitz? Its just a reminder of a killing machine..or a memorial to the dead. Depends how you look at things really.

Roman bath house in town, built by enslaved Britons, leave it or flatten it?

Preservation of physical history is as important as anything else.

So you were against the Jimmy Savile statues being removed then?

 

[chuckbert]

Mandela thought nothing of people dying to get to the end goal, same as Colston.

Really? Come off it.
You have no idea whether either of them thought nothing of people dying - what a daft comment. Colston may have not given a s**t, or may have shook in his bed at night, but loved the profit too much, or thought that he was doing God's will or something. Who's to say terrorists or freedom fighters think nothing of people dying, anymore than the Generals whose humanity-based war actions people defend.

Why this desire to oversimplify and equalise things that are clearly so fundamentally different? On this forum people struggle with the moral equivalence of "club vs country" and can debate it for pages and pages, yet you are placing politically-motivated violent activism alongside large scale capitalist colonialism?

 

[Sarge]

While not making excuses for any of the individuals who statues are seen as offensive going into the third decade of the 21st C, for what history tells us they were responsible for, a perspective seemingly not considered by many, is those who are outraged 'now' appear to be viewing happenings of 2 centuries plus ago, (when the entire World back then had very, very different moral standards), which of course are very conflicting when applying 21st C moral standards. ....

for example, at one point most of the globe was under the 'rule' of The British Empire, imagine the outrage today if said British Empire was built now ( involving all the lets crush Johhny foreigner and exploit all we can to get rich approach used back then), yet jingoistic phrases that hark back to those times are still trotted out these days by certain elements of the media


Capitalism is all about maximizing profit for as little effort & outlay as possible - an ethic of bygone times still applied by the ruling classes in the UK (and elsewhere)

 

[bazzer9461]

So you were against the Jimmy Savile statues being removed then?

Of course they would be removed his crimes were so abhorrent they had to, yes slave owners or masters which ever way you put it were bad and I’m not supporting in these people People in any way but why were those statues erected because they were slave traders or that they did good in the end.
Nelson Mandela was a great man and although South Africa was under apartheid Mandela went and had military training in Morocco so as to start an armed struggle against apartheid which I’m sure the Afrikaans would have classed as terrorism.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

Of course they would be removed his crimes were so abhorrent they had to, yes slave owners or masters which ever way you put it were bad and I’m not supporting in these people People in any way but why were those statues erected because they were slave traders or that they did good in the end.
Nelson Mandela was a great man and although South Africa was under apartheid Mandela went and had military training in Morocco so as to start an armed struggle against apartheid which I’m sure the Afrikaans would have classed as terrorism.

Careful now....Essex labelled him as just that a few posts ago....I hope you're not implying he has sympathies with White Supremecists ?

 

[Oxt1]

So you were against the Jimmy Savile statues being removed then?
[/QUOTE]

Jimmy Saville has been judged as being a bad apple at the time, a lot of what is going on is looking back 200 years and judging with our modern values and ethics.... it'll be interesting how our own morals and ethics are judged in a couple of hundred years???

 

[SteMerritt]

Jimmy Saville has been judged as being a bad apple at the time, a lot of what is going on is looking back 200 years and judging with our modern values and ethics.... it'll be interesting how our own morals and ethics are judged in a couple of hundred years???

Yes I agree, the point was to Essexyellows who was saying statues shouldn't be removed even for bad crimes as people will forget, so was asking him how far that goes.

 

[bazzer9461]

Careful now....Essex labelled him as just that a few posts ago....I hope you're not implying he has sympathies with White Supremecists ?

Hate to say it @Sheik djibouti thats what he was being called Ge rightly opposed apartheid but as there was violence involved from the ANC it was called terrorism,
Like the Catholic’s calling the British go to for help in Northern Ireland then when it came they turned in the British so then we ha d two armed militias the IRA and the UDA stacking one another and tmwhile they were at it have a go at the British soldiers, different to the anti apartheid actions but similar actions, but a big difference is we knew who the IRA and UDA leaders were and where they were.
It’s all oppression and it’s something that will go on and on no matter where.
But I still can’t get over why now why not decades ago people knew about those historic figures and yes we maybe in a generation of bloody snow flakes.
As I said previously take the offending statues down with no publicity and place them in a museum for historical reasons.

 

[bazzer9461]

Yes I agree, the point was to Essexyellows who was saying statues shouldn't be removed even for bad crimes as people will forget, so was asking him how far that goes.

The statues belonging to figures of bad crimes? I hope the historians are ready with there facts because never there are a lot note than people think , will Scotland remove the William Wallace statue because he massacres the Englushband was very brutal when attacking the North of England. Where does this end?

 

[QR]

How do you know Colston didn`t think like that? It was a time of active campaigning against slavery in his later years, ever considered that is why he used his money how he did?

Be careful. You sound like a racist clutching at straws.

 

[bazzer9461]

Be careful. You sound like a racist clutching at straws.

That’s a bit out of order. An opinion doesn’t make racism