National News Sarah Everard

Essexyellows said:
First up, try taking the blinkers off now and again and read what people write.

In London a protest, currently illegal under lockdown rules, went ahead and attracted a bunch of folk who like to rack up at such things.
Not all the demonstrators were female, they were not social distancing and ignored direct instructions from the police.
That escalated the situation, things got feisty and people got arrested.

Compare that with a vigil, also currently illegal under lockdown rules, in Nottingham. People of all ages and genders observing a vigil with no police.
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For the hard of thinking if you don`t act like an entitled prick then the police will let you be. If you get all pushy and shouty then the odds are you`ll experience something very different.

I would have thought football fans would have more understanding of that to be fair.
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Eaststanding said:
Sad case. However she went missing there is a need to deal with misogynistic attitudes. Ok
Last night:
People went to Clapham and paid their respects during the day yesterday, went home, grateful for the opportunity to do so. It’s a vigil, some staying longer than others.
As the day went on, more attended. The Police stood back, asking for people to move on after a reasonable period. Many complied. Happy balance, public pay respects , Covid legislation complied with.
What went wrong: people stopped complying, refused to leave. Turned against the obvious target of police present, verbal and active resistance. Now it’s become a protest, with chanting and singing. No longer a vigil, no longer Covid compliant.
What should the Police do, stand back? Allow Covid rules to be broken?
They can’t win.
Take action, get criticised.
Stand back, get criticised.
This won’t bother the Met, they’ve been here a thousand times before.
Their response was necessary to control aggressive resistance of the activists present, who, by the way, can be as violent and aggressive as any man. The media love it, the politicians wade in with absurd calls for the commissioner to quit, not wanting to be the one to go against popular opinion and support police.
Could be the vigil have been allowed with stewarding; possibly?
Would it have stopped it becoming a protest? We don’t know, but with the strength of feeling about women at risk coupled with the presence of activists and the target of police present, more than likely.
The Met responded on the night in a way that was proportionate to the threat they faced. All the media needed to really tip them were some children being Tasered...
Don’t like what happened last night? Then listen to and comply with requests from law enforcement agencies.
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dannyc said:
had this been a man no one would care tbh double standards really dont stats show twice as men many men get killed than women do so why everyone up in arms .
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utter B*****s - irrelevant of gender the level of public outcry and media coverage depends on the circumstances and level of ‘blame’ that might be attributable to the victim whether male or female. I recall a significant amount of public outcry when Lee Rigby was killed.

However where there is a female victim it does seem to me that there is considerably more public outcry when she is an attractive white middle class person. There are thought to be 12 honour killings in the UK every year where the female victims are almost always totally innocent yet how often are these front page news?
 
dannyc said:
had this been a man no one would care tbh double standards really dont stats show twice as men many men get killed than women do so why everyone up in arms .
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You are correct more men do get murdered but if you look away from the innocent victims you'll see that in 90 %+ of the cases the murderer is male.
 
Sarge said:
take your point...however, and I know its an unpopular perspective, if Sarah Everard had complied with lockdown restrictions, this discussion on this thread wouldn't be taking place?

Of course Im not saying that any woman should not be safe to walk the streets at any time.... the streets of the UK should be safe for anyone , male or female, to go about their legitimate business at any time of day or night

Fact remains, during lockdown restrictions a breach of said lockdown restrictions is an illegal act
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It’s also a dodgy place around Clapham for a single person to be walking alone at night whether you’re a female or a male.
 
Eaststanding said:
Go on, I’m not that good at making assumptions , they’re often wrong
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Proportionality.

This went on all day. Clearly breaking of covid rules and I can't see a copper in sight. Very few masks, lots of top of the voice, raised head, let's see how far I can spread this virus singing. Later in the evening when things got wilder there were 28 arrests.
 
This is a shocking case for so many reasons. The suspect being a met police officer, an innocent woman killed on the way home, and the reaction from met last night at the vigil.

I'm worried this is going to turn into "us versus the police" and "women versus men" when the bottom line is a woman has been murdered in cold blood.

There are some awful people out there. This is such a sad case.
 
QR said:
You are correct more men do get murdered but if you look away from the innocent victims you'll see that in 90 %+ of the cases the murderer is male.
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so because men kill men more its ok then ?.
 
Concretebob said:
This is a shocking case for so many reasons. The suspect being a met police officer, an innocent woman killed on the way home, and the reaction from met last night at the vigil.

I'm worried this is going to turn into "us versus the police" and "women versus men" when the bottom line is a woman has been murdered in cold blood.

There are some awful people out there. This is such a sad case.
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no different than the hundreds of killings in london etc really sad in any case either way .
 
dannyc said:
no different than the hundreds of killings in london etc really sad in any case either way .
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So what are you saying?

Every time a life is taken there should be riots, protests, arrests and disorder?
 
QR said:
Proportionality.

This went on all day. Clearly breaking of covid rules and I can't see a copper in sight. Very few masks, lots of top of the voice, raised head, let's see how far I can spread this virus singing. Later in the evening when things got wilder there were 28 arrests.
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Proportionality of what?
These are two very different scenarios.
A peaceful short term vigil of a maximum of a few hundred people mostly female, low level police plan to advise and guide. Small minority intent on causing trouble were dealt with. Or.
A celebration by thousands of mostly males, alcohol present, being ‘managed’ by police. 28 arrested. Stopping people attending then dealing with any that refuse would take hundreds of officers, someone decided that wasn’t proportionate and so instead a ‘presence’ was there all day. Essentially ineffective at compliance with Covid legislation but considered proportionate to their policing objectives I would imagine.
 
Eaststanding said:
Proportionality of what?
These are two very different scenarios.
A peaceful short term vigil of a maximum of a few hundred people mostly female, low level police plan to advise and guide. Small minority intent on causing trouble were dealt with. Or.
A celebration by thousands of mostly males, alcohol present, being ‘managed’ by police. 28 arrested. Stopping people attending then dealing with any that refuse would take hundreds of officers, someone decided that wasn’t proportionate and so instead a ‘presence’ was there all day. Essentially ineffective at compliance with Covid legislation but considered proportionate to their policing objectives I would imagine.
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Ok so you help me understand.

What could have been the action last night that justified two policemen kneeling on a 5 ft 2 woman at a vigil following the death of a women allegedly murdered by a policeman.
 
QR said:
Ok so you help me understand.

What could have been the action last night that justified two policemen kneeling on a 5 ft 2 woman at a vigil following the death of a women allegedly murdered by a policeman.
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Necessary & proportionate use of force to restrain the individual (height/gender irrespective).

The reason for the vigil does not exempt those from attending from complying with the law.

Had the person just walked away or followed instructions then they wouldn`t have ended up being restrained.

I refer you to the perfectly peaceful vigil that took place in Nottingham.
 
Essexyellows said:
Necessary & proportionate use of force to restrain the individual (height/gender irrespective).

The reason for the vigil does not exempt those from attending from complying with the law.

Had the person just walked away or followed instructions then they wouldn`t have ended up being restrained.

I refer you to the perfectly peaceful vigil that took place in Nottingham.
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You're meant to be helping me understand. Not answering the question isn't helping.
 
m said:
So what are you saying?

Every time a life is taken there should be riots, protests, arrests and disorder?
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no im saying anything but we shouldnt pick and choose outrage over one killing then quiet when others happen before it etc its hypercritical.
 
QR said:
Ok so you help me understand.

What could have been the action last night that justified two policemen kneeling on a 5 ft 2 woman at a vigil following the death of a women allegedly murdered by a policeman.
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No idea, I wasn’t there, nor have I spoken to anyone who was there or read any accounts of anyone that was.
If her actions justified that level of response and it was judged to be proportionate at the time then surely it matters not where it takes place or the event. They’re not going to act any differently at a vigil or a football match. If the officers actions are found to not be proportionate I’m sure they can expect the appropriate sanction.
 
Eaststanding said:
What went wrong: people stopped complying, refused to leave. Turned against the obvious target of police present, verbal and active resistance. Now it’s become a protest, with chanting and singing. No longer a vigil, no longer Covid compliant.
What should the Police do, stand back? Allow Covid rules to be broken?
They can’t win.
Take action, get criticised.
Stand back, get criticised.
This won’t bother the Met, they’ve been here a thousand times before.
Their response was necessary to control aggressive resistance of the activists present, who, by the way, can be as violent and aggressive as any man.
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It was a bandstand in the middle of a park, in the late evening/night time. There were no public order considerations and no indication of unrest. So the police could and should have held back, maintain safety and allow everyone to disburse naturally.

Of course there were some that were intent on causing trouble, but by going in and dragging away people in front of the media, for little more than passive noncompliance, was a bad decision. The Met have been here before, but it's much easier to maintain political and public support when you're steaming in against violent protesters, football fans, black youths etc than it is when you're dragging away a 5ft 2 woman who is there is solidarity for women in fear of attack from men.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see heads roll, and maybe this will change the way all of us are treated by the police. I'd quite like to go to football games and be treated as a lawful decent member of society rather than being policed for what an exception small minority might do.
 
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