International News Russian War With Ukraine

Essexyellows said:
Spent a couple of days with some friends recently. Mrs H is a Russian who lived and worked in Ukraine for 30 or so years before arriving in the UK in the 1990`s.
To say her view of the situation is markedly different from our news/views is an understatement.
Its certainly not as black and white as we are led to believe although we are, broadly, supporting the "right" side of the conflict.
She thinks it will drag on for years, possibly decades until a solution is reached , unless something escalates the situation by design or accident then we would all be getting twitchy!
Click to expand...
What are the grey areas she identifies?
 
H looks to be quite a common surname in that part of the world.
 
Oslernorth said:
What are the grey areas she identifies?
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The complexities of Ukrainian "nationalism" , which is seen by many Russians as something akin to the Nazi`s, hence the ongoing "special operations" and annexing of Crimea for political and strategic purposes.
There are many Ukrainians who also still see themselves as "Russian" (old style), despite the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Then a large part of the (younger) Ukrainian population wants to be more independent and build closer links with the West/Europe.

Because of the scale of the country, those nearest the Western/European countries want to be "like them", those nearest the Russian borders want to be "like them" and lots of people in the middle aren`t sure who is right.

That lead to the Euromaidan in 2013 when there was a civil uprising and the State looked to Russia for help when the people protesting wanted to look to Europe

And don`t even start a conversation about the "Holodomor" in the 1930`s when Stalin tried to stamp out Ukrainian Nationalism by a form of collective starvation taking their production away to the rest of Russia. An estimated 7-10 million died.

It was a long conversation over several glasses and certainly gave me a broader understanding of what Russia want to do, effectively divide Ukraine between them and the West - but keep the bits that are important to Russia, which will never be acceptable.
Likewise, the Ukrainian nationalists want to be closer to Europe but keep hold of too many Russian strategic goals.

As with many things in the world the past can cast a very, very long shadow into the future.
 
The consequence’s of sanctions against Russia are European if not world recession soon. Uk already on the brink.
To do nothing wasn’t, in my view an option but did NATO know this from the get go or not.
 
Marked Ox said:

Izium now in Ukrainian hands and unsurprisingly evidence of potential war crimes. The public response by the Russians is at Comical Ali levels.
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seems like the Ukraine forces are making serious progress in liberating some occupied areas of their country - I'd like to see Ukraine retake Crimea ( eventually)
 
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TL@69 said:
The consequence’s of sanctions against Russia are European if not world recession soon. Uk already on the brink.
To do nothing wasn’t, in my view an option but did NATO know this from the get go or not.
Click to expand...
The Pound’s slump against the Euro and Dollar was going to expose us to a certain level of inflation anyway.
 
TL@69 said:
The consequence’s of sanctions against Russia are European if not world recession soon. Uk already on the brink.
To do nothing wasn’t, in my view an option but did NATO know this from the get go or not.
Click to expand...

They must have known it was a possibility. Likewise the Western Govts, hence the lobbying of Saudi to increase production which failed.
 
Essexyellows said:
The complexities of Ukrainian "nationalism" , which is seen by many Russians as something akin to the Nazi`s, hence the ongoing "special operations" and annexing of Crimea for political and strategic purposes.
There are many Ukrainians who also still see themselves as "Russian" (old style), despite the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Then a large part of the (younger) Ukrainian population wants to be more independent and build closer links with the West/Europe.

Because of the scale of the country, those nearest the Western/European countries want to be "like them", those nearest the Russian borders want to be "like them" and lots of people in the middle aren`t sure who is right.

That lead to the Euromaidan in 2013 when there was a civil uprising and the State looked to Russia for help when the people protesting wanted to look to Europe

And don`t even start a conversation about the "Holodomor" in the 1930`s when Stalin tried to stamp out Ukrainian Nationalism by a form of collective starvation taking their production away to the rest of Russia. An estimated 7-10 million died.

It was a long conversation over several glasses and certainly gave me a broader understanding of what Russia want to do, effectively divide Ukraine between them and the West - but keep the bits that are important to Russia, which will never be acceptable.
Likewise, the Ukrainian nationalists want to be closer to Europe but keep hold of too many Russian strategic goals.

As with many things in the world the past can cast a very, very long shadow into the future.
Click to expand...
I love the stories from a friend of a friend who lived in both places and therefore has a full understanding and grip on the whole situation.

It really bothers me that there is a slow erosion of the fact that a sovereign state with a democratic elected leadership, was invaded by another country because they didn’t like the way that they were going politically…

I know full well that I’m being fed a propaganda story on a day to day basis and I accept that because this is a war. I accept that the Azoz regiments were initially set up by neo nazis and that most of the independent nationalistic regiments started that way. I’ll wager the same would happen here because Nazis are far more up for a fight than most of us.
 
Marston Road yellow said:
I love the stories from a friend of a friend who lived in both places and therefore has a full understanding and grip on the whole situation.

It really bothers me that there is a slow erosion of the fact that a sovereign state with a democratic elected leadership, was invaded by another country because they didn’t like the way that they were going politically…

I know full well that I’m being fed a propaganda story on a day to day basis and I accept that because this is a war. I accept that the Azoz regiments were initially set up by neo nazis and that most of the independent nationalistic regiments started that way. I’ll wager the same would happen here because Nazis are far more up for a fight than most of us.
Click to expand...

Can`t disagree, I saw it fairly simply as well.
The thing is these things are far less "black & white" especially with our Western glasses on.
The Azov nationalists have been up for a fight, and doing so, for many years but does being a nationalist make you a "nazi" by default? Its a fine line... 🤷‍♂️
Massive country, complex arrangements and a lot of bloody history in the mix.

Although, by the way its going, the Russians won`t be hanging around long.
 
Essexyellows said:
Can`t disagree, I saw it fairly simply as well.
The thing is these things are far less "black & white" especially with our Western glasses on.
The Azov nationalists have been up for a fight, and doing so, for many years but does being a nationalist make you a "nazi" by default? Its a fine line... 🤷‍♂️
Massive country, complex arrangements and a lot of bloody history in the mix.

Although, by the way its going, the Russians won`t be hanging around long.
Click to expand...
Russia won’t be beaten that easily. If they are Putin will be dead.

Ultimately Russia will throw the kitchen sink at this if they have to.
 
Marston Road yellow said:
I love the stories from a friend of a friend who lived in both places and therefore has a full understanding and grip on the whole situation.

It really bothers me that there is a slow erosion of the fact that a sovereign state with a democratic elected leadership, was invaded by another country because they didn’t like the way that they were going politically…

I know full well that I’m being fed a propaganda story on a day to day basis and I accept that because this is a war. I accept that the Azoz regiments were initially set up by neo nazis and that most of the independent nationalistic regiments started that way. I’ll wager the same would happen here because Nazis are far more up for a fight than most of us.
Click to expand...

And the Russians have their own Neo-Nazi forces with the Sparta Battalion. They have been decimated as well if reports are accurate
 
news.sky.com

Ukrainian troops reach Kharkiv border with Russia

Ukrainian forces have reached the Ukraine-Russia border after a weekend push to recapture territory taken by Russian troops.
news.sky.com news.sky.com

And no surprise on what they are finding after Russian occupation:

news.sky.com

Life in a liberated Ukraine village

The village of Zaliznychne was occupied by Russian forces until Ukraine pushed back and now suspected war crimes are being investigated.
news.sky.com news.sky.com
 
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