International News Israeli is a racist state operating ethnic cleansing

With a hefty dose of religion on the side.
Hamas is a Sunni - Islamic fundamentalist organisation.

Is there ever going to be an acceptable solution to the situation? I doubt it in my lifetime and, as ever, it's the people that suffer.
An acceptable solution would involve the Israeli government respecting the rights of Palestinians to exist on equal terms, I can't see that happening. Hamas are appalling and unelected, their treatment of the gay and Lesbian community for example is terrible. However, because they are appalling it doesn't excuse the actions of the Israeli government .
 
BBC yesterday morning said all was quiet until Israeli forces moved in without provocation with the "water cannon" - and then said it wasn't water they were using - he described it as "raw sewage" before correcting himself and saying that it was a "chemical" which stank of raw sewage, irritated the skin, and took 5 days to "wash off". So not just persecuting Palestinians but using chemical weapons! Its a disgrace and condemnation is not enough
 
Certainly by Israeli standards what you say is near enough to correct. What Haaretz doesn't do is to address the issue of israel being a colonial state bent on removing all Palestinians from within the territory it claims, like the Guardian makes no real critique of capitalism.

But thanks for reading the thread. I'm not getting into discussions here if I can avoid it. I just aim to record some of the atrocities.
why are you so bothered about palestine exactly i never see you post about countries like china etc when it comes to atrocities .
 
why are you so bothered about palestine exactly i never see you post about countries like china etc when it comes to atrocities .
Generally this is a complex question as to why people are much more focused on Israel than other countries. Israel, unlike the other countries you have mentioned, is a democracy and so on one hand should be held to the same set of values as other democratic countries. I think this is partly the reason.

On the other hand, nobody seems to care about what has happened in Sri Lanka, a democratic country, where thousands of Tamil civilians were killed in 2009, thousands are missing and thousands held in concentration camps. So I guess the question could be why does nobody seem to care about this?

Is it that the Israel issue is a more fashionable cause to follow than other things going on in the world? In the same way there was a focus on SA in the 70s and 80s. I think possibly.

Is it because of antisemitism? As a Jewish person there is no doubt that there is some anti semitism from those that criticise Israel. I have seen plenty of comments on discussions on forums where there are clear anti-semitic comments. I do think this represents a minority of people though although a significant amount of people.

Also, the Palestinians mostly follow Islam (not all though). There are billions of Muslims in the world and naturally people are impacted by and take up the cause for things which they can relate too.

Lastly, whatever the reasons that there seems to be more focus on Israel than other countries it doesn't excuse its behaviour. In many ways Israel in terms of science, technology and innovation is an astonishing country. However, personally I find the states behaviour towards the Palestinian people as abhorrent and they need to be held to account.
 
Generally this is a complex question as to why people are much more focused on Israel than other countries. Israel, unlike the other countries you have mentioned, is a democracy and so on one hand should be held to the same set of values as other democratic countries. I think this is partly the reason.

On the other hand, nobody seems to care about what has happened in Sri Lanka, a democratic country, where thousands of Tamil civilians were killed in 2009, thousands are missing and thousands held in concentration camps. So I guess the question could be why does nobody seem to care about this?

Is it that the Israel issue is a more fashionable cause to follow than other things going on in the world? In the same way there was a focus on SA in the 70s and 80s. I think possibly.

Is it because of antisemitism? As a Jewish person there is no doubt that there is some anti semitism from those that criticise Israel. I have seen plenty of comments on discussions on forums where there are clear anti-semitic comments. I do think this represents a minority of people though although a significant amount of people.

Also, the Palestinians mostly follow Islam (not all though). There are billions of Muslims in the world and naturally people are impacted by and take up the cause for things which they can relate too.

Lastly, whatever the reasons that there seems to be more focus on Israel than other countries it doesn't excuse its behaviour. In many ways Israel in terms of science, technology and innovation is an astonishing country. However, personally I find the states behaviour towards the Palestinian people as abhorrent and they need to be held to account.

I think it is also that Israel is more widely reported on unlike Sri Lanka which was only really reported on at big moments in mainstream media. Although I remember stuff being discussed about Sri Lanka when at Uni.

Also, geopolitics has an impact where Israel/Palestine is concerned compared to others like Sri Lanka. The Middle East is in an area that is a geopolitical powderkeg which is why an incident there gets lots of focus. And what happens in terms of conflict in the Middle East can seriously affect the rest of the world in one way or another unlike the likes Sri Lanka. It shouldn't make Sri Lanka, or the many others any less serious or due scrutiny but unfortunately they do get less attention for this reason imo.
 
why are you so bothered about palestine exactly i never see you post about countries like china etc when it comes to atrocities .

A more complete answer from me.

From 1997 to 2002 I ran the middle east operation of a company registered in the USA but whose products were designed and manufactured to the most part in israel, in which products were installed in major companies in a number of countries including UAE, Qatar, Jordan and Egypt plus systems were installed in Palestine. I spent some time in the Tel Aviv area and visited (including for periods occasionally of weeks at a time) most of the countries israel was banned from. I have or had friends across the region including a few israelis and a larger number of people of palestinian family origin (many palestinians live in the gulf, more in jordan and lebanon) who may not return to the places their grandparents were born and lived in.

At the start of this period the 'two-state solution' appeared to be viable and even desired more than not on both sides. This was what permitted the enterprise to start and initially flourish. In 2000 the company was in the process of out-sourcing certain technologically unfashionable development (I mean highly-specific, low-level coding activities which were not-transferable skills within the global IT industry) to Jordan, where there was a wealth of highly-educated programming talent that had nowhere to work). This was ground-breaking (afaik) and, in the way that small steps are, important in the development of business relationships between israel and arab countries. I was highly involved in this. On 28th September 2000 Ariel Sharon (the instigator of the massacre of 400-3,500 palestinian and lebanese civilian by lebanese falangists in 1982), surrounded by 100s of riot police 'visited' the Haram al Sharif and all hell broke loose. It was the end of co-operation.

In israel I made a few friends (I am not by nature gregarious) who I was proud to know and would be delighted to see again. I met a range of people (this was an IT company so was let's say 'white collar' and relatively educated; I don't recall meeting any orthodox jews) including one who boasted that he kept a pistol in his glove box 'in case he met a pale' and was a not very extreme example of a fairly large minority. Among the arabs (and these were again mainly well-educated workers and middle-class businessmen) there was also a gradient. A majority of non-Palestinians were frankly not that bothered, concerned but resigned. Palestinian diaspora members in the gulf were politely angry but resigned (imagine being born in Kuwait/Saudi/UAE etc in a palestinian family - having no right to remain without a work permit and nowhere else to go - this is common). In jordan (about half of the population are disposessed palestinians) there was rather more feeling, some anger (arabs are generally polite and won't rant at visitors). Interestingly we had to put an israeli engineer into Amman to install something (it was common for israeli tourists to go to Amman, Petra etc so while quite brave this wasn't foolhardy) or other; the palestinian engineer he worked with had been quite strident about israel but they did the job, sometime afterwards (it was at a conference in Deauville during the week of 9-11) he told me the experience had 'made him realise that this was just another bloke' or words to that effect. This was moving.

So, @dannyc , to start to answer your question, I have had personal experience of this and I still feel I have vicarious skin in the game. As you say there are many other atrocities going on, the other reasons I think this is special are:

1. No other state supported by my country is ethnically cleansing annexed territory as far as I know. Or has apartheid integrated in its laws or constitution.

2. Britain holds a major share of responsibility.
The Balfour Declaration set up the notion that palestine was unoccupied and should be given to european and american (white) settlers, thus declaring the indigenous population subhuman like australian & new zealand aborigines, native americans and other inconvenient inhabitants.

British officials (McMahon etc) promised a free Syrian as a reward for the Hashemite arabs' support against the Ottoman Empire in 1916, concurrently agreeing with France and Italy & Russia iirc (Sykes-Picot) that the middle east would be divided between the 4 powers.

Britain and France stalled and prevented the recognition of an independent, Syria under it's king appointed by a democratically elected parliament (1920/21) under the aegis of the League of Nations and supported the French destruction of Syria.

During the mandate period (1922-47) we began the ethnic cleansing (Article 4 of the mandate "An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country.")

3. We denied and deny the culture of pre-1916 Palestine, ignoring 500 years of development of a complex, developed society before and within the Ottoman Empire.

4. Our press is incredibly biased and presents israel and as israelis as the underdogs against a massive force of crazed islamists.
 
A more complete answer from me.

From 1997 to 2002 I ran the middle east operation of a company registered in the USA but whose products were designed and manufactured to the most part in israel, in which products were installed in major companies in a number of countries including UAE, Qatar, Jordan and Egypt plus systems were installed in Palestine. I spent some time in the Tel Aviv area and visited (including for periods occasionally of weeks at a time) most of the countries israel was banned from. I have or had friends across the region including a few israelis and a larger number of people of palestinian family origin (many palestinians live in the gulf, more in jordan and lebanon) who may not return to the places their grandparents were born and lived in.

At the start of this period the 'two-state solution' appeared to be viable and even desired more than not on both sides. This was what permitted the enterprise to start and initially flourish. In 2000 the company was in the process of out-sourcing certain technologically unfashionable development (I mean highly-specific, low-level coding activities which were not-transferable skills within the global IT industry) to Jordan, where there was a wealth of highly-educated programming talent that had nowhere to work). This was ground-breaking (afaik) and, in the way that small steps are, important in the development of business relationships between israel and arab countries. I was highly involved in this. On 28th September 2000 Ariel Sharon (the instigator of the massacre of 400-3,500 palestinian and lebanese civilian by lebanese falangists in 1982), surrounded by 100s of riot police 'visited' the Haram al Sharif and all hell broke loose. It was the end of co-operation.

In israel I made a few friends (I am not by nature gregarious) who I was proud to know and would be delighted to see again. I met a range of people (this was an IT company so was let's say 'white collar' and relatively educated; I don't recall meeting any orthodox jews) including one who boasted that he kept a pistol in his glove box 'in case he met a pale' and was a not very extreme example of a fairly large minority. Among the arabs (and these were again mainly well-educated workers and middle-class businessmen) there was also a gradient. A majority of non-Palestinians were frankly not that bothered, concerned but resigned. Palestinian diaspora members in the gulf were politely angry but resigned (imagine being born in Kuwait/Saudi/UAE etc in a palestinian family - having no right to remain without a work permit and nowhere else to go - this is common). In jordan (about half of the population are disposessed palestinians) there was rather more feeling, some anger (arabs are generally polite and won't rant at visitors). Interestingly we had to put an israeli engineer into Amman to install something (it was common for israeli tourists to go to Amman, Petra etc so while quite brave this wasn't foolhardy) or other; the palestinian engineer he worked with had been quite strident about israel but they did the job, sometime afterwards (it was at a conference in Deauville during the week of 9-11) he told me the experience had 'made him realise that this was just another bloke' or words to that effect. This was moving.

So, @dannyc , to start to answer your question, I have had personal experience of this and I still feel I have vicarious skin in the game. As you say there are many other atrocities going on, the other reasons I think this is special are:

1. No other state supported by my country is ethnically cleansing annexed territory as far as I know. Or has apartheid integrated in its laws or constitution.

2. Britain holds a major share of responsibility.
The Balfour Declaration set up the notion that palestine was unoccupied and should be given to european and american (white) settlers, thus declaring the indigenous population subhuman like australian & new zealand aborigines, native americans and other inconvenient inhabitants.

British officials (McMahon etc) promised a free Syrian as a reward for the Hashemite arabs' support against the Ottoman Empire in 1916, concurrently agreeing with France and Italy & Russia iirc (Sykes-Picot) that the middle east would be divided between the 4 powers.

Britain and France stalled and prevented the recognition of an independent, Syria under it's king appointed by a democratically elected parliament (1920/21) under the aegis of the League of Nations and supported the French destruction of Syria.

During the mandate period (1922-47) we began the ethnic cleansing (Article 4 of the mandate "An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country.")

3. We denied and deny the culture of pre-1916 Palestine, ignoring 500 years of development of a complex, developed society before and within the Ottoman Empire.

4. Our press is incredibly biased and presents israel and as israelis as the underdogs against a massive force of crazed islamists.
well i think when america got involved after us if got worse maybe the only hope now is the land slpit in two and each has thier part if force is needed to get to that outcome might be the only way .
 
I no longer have any desire to get involved in politically motivated discussions on this forum. Too many extremists of one form or another, and I'm not going to be drawn into any naming or tittle tattle.

However, the more I inform myself of the conflict in the middle east, the more I become of the opinion that the State of Israel has taken a very dislikeable stance to it's neighbours. Once upon a time I would have accepted that they operated out of fear for their existence, that is no longer the case.

Keep it coming @Paul Cannell I appreciate the information.

For too long the spectre of 'anti semitism' has, to an extent, prevented free speech and the ability to criticise the actions of Israel taken in the name of Judaism when, in reality, they appear more and more to have been for expansionistic purpose only.
 
I no longer have any desire to get involved in politically motivated discussions on this forum. Too many extremists of one form or another, and I'm not going to be drawn into any naming or tittle tattle.

However, the more I inform myself of the conflict in the middle east, the more I become of the opinion that the State of Israel has taken a very dislikeable stance to it's neighbours. Once upon a time I would have accepted that they operated out of fear for their existence, that is no longer the case.

Keep it coming @Paul Cannell I appreciate the information.

For too long the spectre of 'anti semitism' has, to an extent, prevented free speech and the ability to criticise the actions of Israel taken in the name of Judaism when, in reality, they appear more and more to have been for expansionistic purpose only.

Yeah, a few people could do with accepting that criticism of Israel does not (necessarily) equal antisemitism.

Of course they already know this.
 
Hmmmmm might be a good idea not to send rockets into Israeli territory??....jus sayin... 👀 👀 🤔🤔🤔

🤔
 
I no longer have any desire to get involved in politically motivated discussions on this forum. Too many extremists of one form or another, and I'm not going to be drawn into any naming or tittle tattle.

However, the more I inform myself of the conflict in the middle east, the more I become of the opinion that the State of Israel has taken a very dislikeable stance to it's neighbours. Once upon a time I would have accepted that they operated out of fear for their existence, that is no longer the case.

Keep it coming @Paul Cannell I appreciate the information.

For too long the spectre of 'anti semitism' has, to an extent, prevented free speech and the ability to criticise the actions of Israel taken in the name of Judaism when, in reality, they appear more and more to have been for expansionistic purpose only.

I'd say this has been engineered by Israel. The timing seems rather convenient for Netanyahu and of course it could be coincidence or maybe not.
 
I no longer have any desire to get involved in politically motivated discussions on this forum. Too many extremists of one form or another, and I'm not going to be drawn into any naming or tittle tattle.

However, the more I inform myself of the conflict in the middle east, the more I become of the opinion that the State of Israel has taken a very dislikeable stance to it's neighbours. Once upon a time I would have accepted that they operated out of fear for their existence, that is no longer the case.

Keep it coming @Paul Cannell I appreciate the information.

For too long the spectre of 'anti semitism' has, to an extent, prevented free speech and the ability to criticise the actions of Israel taken in the name of Judaism when, in reality, they appear more and more to have been for expansionistic purpose only.
Quite. And I too am grateful to @Paul Cannell for presenting facts rather than rhetoric. Israel's aim remains expansionist. The tiny Gaza Strip is not too much of a problem for the Israeli government. There are two million Palestinians crammed in there and precious little room for any new Jewish settlements. (And I say 'Jewish' advisedly as a further two million Palestinians are also Israeli citizens). The West Bank, however, has plenty of land which is available for Israeli expansion, and sod the roughly 1.5 million Palestinians living there.

There seems to be no hope for a solution. Someone is providing Hamas with rockets (reportedly, and very likely, Iran), but the overwhelming Israeli armed forces will always prevail, and the Israeli government has no need to even consider any sort of peace plan from their position of strength. Biden cannot openly criticise Israel with 12 million+ Jewish voters in the USA and must restrict himself to condemning violence, while supporting Israel's right to defend itself.

PS Anyone who thinks Israeli action is acceptable because Hamas has some rockets understands nothing. It should also be pointed out that not all US Jews support the actions of Israel, and many non-Jews support Zionist views.
 
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Even a simpleton can see that if there wasnt an attack on Israel then they would be hard pressed to explain their actions........but i guess some cannot see that ;)
 
Quite. And I too am grateful to @Paul Cannell for presenting facts rather than rhetoric. Israel's aim remains expansionist. The tiny Gaza Strip is not too much of a problem for the Israeli government. There are two million Palestinians crammed in there and precious little room for any new Jewish settlements. (And I say 'Jewish' advisedly as a further two million Palestinians are also Israeli citizens). The West Bank, however, has plenty of land which is available for Israeli expansion, and sod the roughly 1.5 million Palestinians living there.

There seems to be no hope for a solution. Someone is providing Hamas with rockets (reportedly, and very likely, Iran), but the overwhelming Israeli armed forces will always prevail, and the Israeli government has no need to even consider any sort of peace plan from their position of strength. Biden cannot openly criticise Israel with 12 million+ Jewish voters in the USA and must restrict himself to condemning violence, while supporting Israel's right to defend itself.

PS Anyone who thinks Israeli action is acceptable because Hamas has some rockets understands nothing.
He can and choses not too. I'm Jewish and think the actions of Israel are abhorrent. You are conflating Jews as being reasons why the US can't criticise Israel. Many Jews can't stand how Israel behaves. Many supporters of Israel are from the bible belt and Christians.
 

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