National News Nanny State.............

Essexyellows

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So Scotland classifies smacking a child as "assault".
Nanny State.

In other news kids are stabbing each other for looking at them the wrong way.

Discipline has left the building............................

As a kid I got the occasional, deserved, smack, but that was tempered with unconditional parental love. "You done bad, smack, move on".
What now? Society has produced a perfect excuse for the next generation of feral parents to raise more "untouchable" kids.

I give up.
 

SteMerritt

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There has been a study which links stopping smacking children to the rise in knife crime??? I missed that one, is there a link?
 

horseman

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Education normal started in the home and continued at school...if i did the wrong thing at school i was immediately dropped from the Football or cricket team..if i did the wrong thing in the house i was stopped from going to the manor...i am told that parents in Wiltshire that adopted a similar approach saw a massive increase in misbehaviour in the home :)
 

Essexyellows

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There has been a study which links stopping smacking children to the rise in knife crime??? I missed that one, is there a link?

Ever since corporal punishment was vilified in the 60s/70s the outcome has been a deterioration of general discipline in society, and that is getting worse with each generation.
You learn very quickly what is right & wrong when you get a short,sharp shock.
 

SteMerritt

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Ever since corporal punishment was vilified in the 60s/70s the outcome has been a deterioration of general discipline in society, and that is getting worse with each generation.
You learn very quickly what is right & wrong when you get a short,sharp shock.
Any figures to back that up, or just a feeling you have? I'm pretty sure that there was quite a bit of anti-social behaviour in the 70s and 80s.

For what it's worth, I'm not in favour of banning smacking children, not that I've ever done it myself. There is a lot of difference between a parent smacking as a quick correction, to giving a child a 'thrashing'.
 

gofish2

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So how should one reproach a child for wrongdoing then?
Words, disapproval and the use of reparation are powerful tools. Alternatively we can teach children that 'wrongdoing; results in physical chastisement, which they will then take into their social relationships and use when faced with conflict. What an intelligent approach!
 

SteMerritt

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Words, disapproval and the use of reparation are powerful tools. Alternatively we can teach children that 'wrongdoing; results in physical chastisement, which they will then take into their social relationships and use when faced with conflict. What an intelligent approach!
Do they? Has there been a study done on that, or is that what you think happens?
 

gofish2

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Do they? Has there been a study done on that, or is that what you think happens?
Yes, there certainly have been many studies on aggression and violence in adolescents and the causal factors in relation to the environments in which children develop. You can back as far as Bolby, Winnicott and others of the period, or more recently in FMRI scans used in neuroscience. The research into this and other behavioural traits is endless.
I would add that it is not a given that all children will be physically aggressive or violent, but they may well have other behavioural difficulties which will find interpersonal expression.
 

Essexyellows

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Any figures to back that up, or just a feeling you have? I'm pretty sure that there was quite a bit of anti-social behaviour in the 70s and 80s.

For what it's worth, I'm not in favour of banning smacking children, not that I've ever done it myself. There is a lot of difference between a parent smacking as a quick correction, to giving a child a 'thrashing'.

1990 ASB became a "crime" created by New Labour as a catch all for the first generation to have grown up without a modicum of fear of discipline.

I would refer you to an interesting book "Criminalising Social Policy, ASB and Welfare in a de-civilised society" by John J Rodger. In which he writes:

"Social policy increasingly is viewed in terms of its direct consequences for incivility and crime in terms of both inhibiting them or, in the opinion of those such as Marsland (1996) and Murray (1994), encouraging them. "

Ironically he likens the state criminilising peoples behaviour to that of the Nazi`s !


Spare the rod spoil the child. ;)
 

Briggsy

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There has been a study which links stopping smacking children to the rise in knife crime??? I missed that one, is there a link?

I rather think the link is more likely to be that smacking children leads to increases in knife crime.
 

Shropshire U

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Hitting children is unequivocally wrong wrong wrong. Look at the history of human violence. If children learn that it's ok for their trusted adults, their parents and carers, to cross that line and apply physical force, then it's ok for them to do it too.
It's obvious nonsense to claim that there is more violence today because hitting children has been more and more called into question over the last 20-30 years. That would imply that the world was all sweetness and light in the millenia when children were routinely hit. Try telling that to the billions of war victims and victims of interpersonal violence over the course of the history of our species.
Violence against women, and wives in particular, was also once a cornerstone of society. We move on from these primitive behaviours.
 

ZeroTheHero

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There are a load of factors that lead to crime of any sort. To claim that beating children would solve anything at all is very odd indeed and hugely simplistic. Since men were allowed to beat their wives and everyone was allowed to hit children it's amazing there was a single incident of crime of any description - never mind murders, stabbings and rife gang violence - in the Victorian era!
 

SteMerritt

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Hitting children is unequivocally wrong wrong wrong. Look at the history of human violence. If children learn that it's ok for their trusted adults, their parents and carers, to cross that line and apply physical force, then it's ok for them to do it too.
It's obvious nonsense to claim that there is more violence today because hitting children has been more and more called into question over the last 20-30 years. That would imply that the world was all sweetness and light in the millenia when children were routinely hit. Try telling that to the billions of war victims and victims of interpersonal violence over the course of the history of our species.
Violence against women, and wives in particular, was also once a cornerstone of society. We move on from these primitive behaviours.
I dont think you can link disciplining a child to wars, that is just taking things to an illogical extreme. And linking to domestic violence is also an extreme leap.

Are you suggesting that a parent who gives a slap on the behind maybe 5 times in 16 years as an instant correction is the same as a parent who engages in years of beatings? Life, for me, just isn't that black and white.

I'm not saying I'm 'pro' in the debate, as I said I've never raised a hand to my daughter and I can't imagine a scenario where I ever would, but I've seen very good parents give a small slap on a behind when needed, and I believe they are in their right to do that. That is a world away from abuse.
 

Shropshire U

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I dont think you can link disciplining a child to wars
War is relevant because it is the ultimate manifestation of violence. I agree that we have to distinguish between a light smack and a haymaker, but only in the sense that they are part of a continuum.
As human beings we all carry an invisible personal safety zone. We relax that zone when we interact with lovers and family members and close friends.
And we become more aware of that zone when it is threatened in unwanted ways (people who get in your face or people who threaten in some way or Millwall fans or whoever).
It's important for child development to learn the boundaries of that zone. If they learn that it is ok for the boundary to be crossed by parental physical punishment it sets up potentially bad stuff. It teaches the child that it is ok to problem solve in this way.
Many will stay at the lower end of the continuum, but many others will graduate towards more and more anti-social points on that continuum.
 

RyanioBirdio

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1990 ASB became a "crime" created by New Labour as a catch all for the first generation to have grown up without a modicum of fear of discipline.
New Labour didn’t exist until October 1994, when Tony Blair first coined the phrase at the Labour Party Conference after he became leader.

You don’t need to physically strike your children to instil obedience and a sense of decency in them. If you need to hit a child to make them listen to you, it’s more likely to be a failure of your ability to effectively communicate with them. Failing this, the child may have something wrong with them that a simple slap could never fix anyway. Behavioural disorders are medically proven to exist, but in the sixties and seventies would have been classed as nonsense. A bit like how depression wouldn’t have existed either, as far as most people were concerned. Imagine how many kids who were medically and psychologically unbalanced were battered until they were black and blue, all because we had no idea what the hell we were doing as a society in terms of medical and psychological advancement. I can’t mourn for the days when everything from autism to ADD would have been classed as humbug, and those living with them would’ve been caned and belted. I think it’s a little wishful and naive to believe that the ability and willingness to smash our kids about led to the downfall of society.

I despair as much as the next person at some of the laws that pop up from time to time, but not walloping a child to get your point across isn’t something I’ll personally be wailing about. And yes, I do have firsthand experience with raising and looking after children.
 
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