International News Israel Palestine conflict

chromeyellow said:
I can't think of many parts of the world (apart from the Israeli Government and a small corner of Yellows Forum) that are at best indifferent to the violent deaths of tens of thousands of civilians including well over ten thousand children
Click to expand...
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this?

There's a *huge* difference between being 'indifferent' and acknowledging that it's a war, and in war people die. That doesn't stop it from being horrible, but it's just a fact.
 
MustardYellow said:
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this?

There's a *huge* difference between being 'indifferent' and acknowledging that it's a war, and in war people die. That doesn't stop it from being horrible, but it's just a fact.
Click to expand...
I'm going to be honest, I disagree with a lot of what you've written on this thread.

However, a very small number of posters use this section of the forum largely to try and flex some sort of moral superiority over others and it prevents proper debates from taking place.


Essexyellows said:
For those berating the BBC I suggest you watch "The Darkest Days - Israel-Gaza Six months on".

It will also educate people as to why any form of peace/ceasefire is only going to be very short lived.

For those comparing it to Northern Ireland it is absolutely poles apart due to sheer volume of innocent people dying.
Click to expand...

Long term peace feels impossible because one side doesn't acknowledge Israel's right to exist, whereas Israel has clearly overstepped the mark using "settlements" in the West Bank, and are extremely defensive as they are a religious outlier in the middle east.

Long term peace probably is nigh-on impossible, however if there was a ceasefire there could at least be an attempt at some kind of proper negotiation.
 
Wandering Yellow said:
The decision to go to wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were absolutely nonsensical to me.

Will never forgive Blair and Campbell for backing that.

I prefer democracy, but do we have a right to impose our value system on these countries? I don't think so. We basically did the same with colonialism, thinking we were civilising savages. It's not our place to get involved.
Click to expand...
I agree, but then why send money there? According to the World Bank, around 20% of all aid is lost to corruption. In places like Afghanistan, they estimate ~70% of aid is at risk of corruption. Up to 50% of all aid sent to Africa is lost through 'corruption and mismanagement'.

If you look at the issues relating to this thread, in 2013 the EU accused Palestinians of wasting billions of aid through corruption and mismanagement. EU investigators who visited Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank reported their inability to address “high-level risks” such as “corruption or funds not being used for their intended purpose". 'Roughly €2.3 Billion ($3.1 Billion) made its way from Europe to the Palestinian territories between 2008 and 2012, but much of it is unaccounted for, the report said.'

This is in part why Israel are wary about allowing waves of aid into Gaza - you're potentially just funding the problem.
 
chromeyellow said:
I can't think of many parts of the world (apart from the Israeli Government and a small corner of Yellows Forum) that are at best indifferent to the violent deaths of tens of thousands of civilians including well over ten thousand children
Click to expand...
I didn t say I was Indifferent, I have already said no one wants deaths of innocent people but Israel is trying to eradicate a terrorist group who along with Islamic jihadists couldn't t give too hoots about the very same civilians.

These people are pure evil, recent calls for attacks against British civilians at Champions League games from groups in support of Hamas.israel is fighting Jihadists on all sides of it,s borders.

We are actually reliant on Israel to keep these fac tions in check and that is why we provide them with weapons.

If Iran gets nuclear weapons then we really would be on the verge of ww3 as they would actually use them.

You like to be righteous and take the moral high ground but the situation is hugely more complicated than you make out.



I
 
BS32 said:
I didn t say I was Indifferent, I have already said no one wants deaths of innocent people but Israel is trying to eradicate a terrorist group who along with Islamic jihadists couldn't t give too hoots about the very same civilians.

These people are pure evil, recent calls for attacks against British civilians at Champions League games from groups in support of Hamas.israel is fighting Jihadists on all sides of it,s borders.

We are actually reliant on Israel to keep these fac tions in check and that is why we provide them with weapons.

If Iran gets nuclear weapons then we really would be on the verge of ww3 as they would actually use them.

You like to be righteous and take the moral high ground but the situation is hugely more complicated than you make out.



I
Click to expand...
This point is key.

If Hamas had the capabilities, they'd be doing *far* worse to Israel than what Israel is doing to them - they've said so themselves on countless occasions. This is the exact reason why Israel need to prevent them from having such capabilities. It's why they restrict what enters Gaza.

There is no simple solution, it can't be solved simply by what people deem 'morally' right on Israel's side. Hamas aren't 'moral'.
 
MustardYellow said:
This point is key.

If Hamas had the capabilities, they'd be doing *far* worse to Israel than what Israel is doing to them - they've said so themselves on countless occasions. This is the exact reason why Israel need to prevent them from having such capabilities. It's why they restrict what enters Gaza.

There is no simple solution, it can't be solved simply by what people deem 'morally' right on Israel's side. Hamas aren't 'moral'.
Click to expand...

Israel have the means and have pretty much destroyed Gaza including its infrastructure, flattened whole towns/cities, restricted food/water to the point of famine, killed 10s of 000's, injured 000s more. And basically left a 2m+ population living in tents. According to the Settler groups, Israeli Govt Ministers are talking to them about Gaza settlements.

What exactly would Hamas do that is *far* worse?

And the West Bank Palestinians haven't attacked Israel yet they are being killed, being detained without charge indefinitely, having their land stolen etc by the Israeli Govt and settlers with Israeli Military support.
 
so it looks as though @Wandering Yellow @BS32 and @MustardYellow are all still happily defending the mass slaughter of children on an unprecedented scale in modern warfare.


talking about what Hamas would do if it could is irrelevant,. You are defending the monstrous.

if being opposed to the mass slaughter of children is "try[ing] and flex some sort of moral superiority over others " then I'm happy to be guilty as charged.
 
  • React
Reactions: QR
As soon as the war ends Netanyahu will be forced to step down. this is one reason why the war is continuing. Children are dying in their thousands in Gaza so Netaanyahu can avoid corruption charges a few more days.
 
MustardYellow said:
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this?

There's a *huge* difference between being 'indifferent' and acknowledging that it's a war, and in war people die. That doesn't stop it from being horrible, but it's just a fact.
Click to expand...

if you accept the fact that.children are dying in unprecdented numbers yet do nothing to stop it then you are at best indifferent and at worst complicit
 
  • React
Reactions: QR
chromeyellow said:
so it looks as though @Wandering Yellow @BS32 and @MustardYellow are all still happily defending the mass slaughter of children on an unprecedented scale in modern warfare.


talking about what Hamas would do if it could is irrelevant,. You are defending the monstrous.

if being opposed to the mass slaughter of children is "try[ing] and flex some sort of moral superiority over others " then I'm happy to be guilty as charged.
Click to expand...
That's an outrageous statement. Show me one example where I have done that.

You are talking b0llocks.
 
I created this thread so it didn't clog up other threads. Baselessly accusing others of "defending the mass slaughter of children" without evidence of anything they've said is well over the line @chromeyellow

Potentially this subject is too toxic for a football forum. It seems to encourage people to get into a tribal mode which almost reflects the conflict itself.
 
Marked Ox said:
Israel have the means and have pretty much destroyed Gaza including its infrastructure, flattened whole towns/cities, restricted food/water to the point of famine, killed 10s of 000's, injured 000s more. And basically left a 2m+ population living in tents. According to the Settler groups, Israeli Govt Ministers are talking to them about Gaza settlements.

What exactly would Hamas do that is *far* worse?

And the West Bank Palestinians haven't attacked Israel yet they are being killed, being detained without charge indefinitely, having their land stolen etc by the Israeli Govt and settlers with Israeli Military support.
Click to expand...
We saw a snippet of what they'd do on October 7th - they'd kill everyone. There's no proof Israel are intentionally targeting civilians, yet we have significant proof Hamas target innocent Israeli's (Nova music festival, one huge and horrific example).

The West Bank is a different conversation. They aren't governed by Hamas. I don't agree with a lot of what happens there.

This conflict is all about 'us against them'. What Hamas do to Israelis is so barbaric because they see all Israelis as the enemy. The way some Palestinians are treated in the West Bank by settlers is so awful because they see all Palestinians as 'out to get them', or a potential future enemy.

There's so much hatred and possibly more importantly at times, distrust, that small problems escalate and there's a constant suspicion and assumption of danger from one another.
 
Wandering Yellow said:
I created this thread so it didn't clog up other threads. Baselessly accusing others of "defending the mass slaughter of children" without evidence of anything they've said is well over the line @chromeyellow

Potentially this subject is too toxic for a football forum. It seems to encourage people to get into a tribal mode which almost reflects the conflict itself.
Click to expand...

Personally don't think it is too toxic and is a subject that needs to be discussed to highlight the evil carried out on both sides.
 
Marked Ox said:
Personally don't think it is too toxic and is a subject that needs to be discussed to highlight the evil carried out on both sides.
Click to expand...
Ultimately I agree with you, but we need to 'play the ball not the man', I've been guilty of that myself on here in the past.

I think long term goals of peace need to be cast aside. A ceasefire and allowing of the free flow of aid could allow for a time of peace and some form of discussion with all of the major players at the table.
 
chromeyellow said:
so it looks as though @Wandering Yellow @BS32 and @MustardYellow are all still happily defending the mass slaughter of children on an unprecedented scale in modern warfare.


talking about what Hamas would do if it could is irrelevant,. You are defending the monstrous.

if being opposed to the mass slaughter of children is "try[ing] and flex some sort of moral superiority over others " then I'm happy to be guilty as charged.
Click to expand...
You're an extremely emotional individual, aren't you?

Categorising any and all deaths during a war as a 'slaughter' is insanely emotive, and frankly a bit silly.

No one has actually defended anything of the sort. I've merely pointed out that your understanding of international law is fundamentally wrong.
 
I don't subscribe to the argument "Israel has a right to defend itself" meaning any actions they make are justified.

That ignores the complex history, and ignores the concept of excessive force. To me an analogy is one guy punches a guy in the face, and then the guy starts repeatedly stabbing the man who has punched him.

I don't necessarily subscribe to the "Israel has no right to exist" argument either.

That ignores the complex and brutal history of the treatment of Jewish peoples over Europe and the world. Do I think Israel has well overstepped the mark from original agreements? 100%. I see no logical argument that the settlements in the west bank are in any way fair.
 
Wandering Yellow said:
I created this thread so it didn't clog up other threads. Baselessly accusing others of "defending the mass slaughter of children" without evidence of anything they've said is well over the line @chromeyellow

Potentially this subject is too toxic for a football forum. It seems to encourage people to get into a tribal mode which almost reflects the conflict itself.
Click to expand...
I'm not entirely sure what you expected, this is an incredibly emotive subject and the responses reflect that. I'm not even sure it's a left v right debate. I think lumping you in with MY is actually unfair - unlike you, he lacks compassion and empathy.

I would suggest if you find this 'toxic', simply don't engage, it's unlikely you will change anyone's mind.
 
chromeyellow said:
if you accept the fact that.children are dying in unprecdented numbers yet do nothing to stop it then you are at best indifferent and at worst complicit
Click to expand...
They are dying in a war. It's sad, but that's war for you. What exactly do you expect me to do about it? Go to Gaza and defend them?

If you feel this strongly about it then I suggest directing your anger towards Hamas. Israel has the right to protect it's national security.
 
Wandering Yellow said:
I don't subscribe to the argument "Israel has a right to defend itself" meaning any actions they make are justified.

That ignores the complex history, and ignores the concept of excessive force. To me an analogy is one guy punches a guy in the face, and then the guy starts repeatedly stabbing the man who has punched him.

I don't necessarily subscribe to the "Israel has no right to exist" argument either.

That ignores the complex and brutal history of the treatment of Jewish peoples over Europe and the world. Do I think Israel has well overstepped the mark from original agreements? 100%. I see no logical argument that the settlements in the west bank are in any way fair.
Click to expand...
There's a significant difference between the engagement of war and a bust up in the street, though.

Comparing war to 'normal' life is just unreasonable. The laws are completely different, as are the morals.

I agree that the behaviour of some settlers in the West Bank is inexcusable.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Northstandboy
International News East Palestine, Ohio
Replies
5
Views
1K
tonyw
T
Back
Top Bottom