National News Sir Keir Starmer

QR said:
No, not at all. Of course you have to maintain a dialogue with the country but what you don't do is make 'cast iron' costed promises before you know the state of the finances you're going to inherit*. FFS, I'm criticising Labour here and I'm still getting it in the neck from the usual suspects!😳😳

*Maybe, pre Truss, they though there was no possibility way the economy could get any worse.
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😂 I thought you were defending u-turns on the back of Trussconomics.

Problem is, you and I both know that once in power the same old tripe will be rolled out... finances were even worse than envisaged etc etc. Conservative did it and Labour will too.

So back to my very original point, same old guff , different government.

Sorry for being so negative, but I can't see beyond the same old tripe we get served up week in week out, ad nauseam.
 
Sheik djibouti said:
Which begs the question, who then are the Man City/Liverpool's of the political world?

I bet their absolute dominance means they're probably authoritarian/totalitarian/fascist regimes :unsure: ;)
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kim jong-un rarely drops a vote during the election season and is always there or there abouts when the results come in!
 
Sheik djibouti said:
Which begs the question, who then are the Man City/Liverpool's of the political world?

I bet their absolute dominance means they're probably authoritarian/totalitarian/fascist regimes :unsure: ;)
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The West tend to call them dictators, arrange their removal, and then spend decades clearing up the mess after the pot boils over.
 
MC Yellow said:
😂 I thought you were defending u-turns on the back of Trussconomics.
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In my first sentence I call Labour stupid. That should have given you a clue.

Are you suggesting I should call the original promise a stupid thing to do and also the u-turn? 🤷. You people!
 
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QR said:
In my first sentence I call Labour stupid. That should have given you a clue.

Are you see suggesting I should call the original promise a stupid thing to do and also the u-turn? 🤷. You people!
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You People?

I think you have already answered your own question in this respect.
 
There's a great example of election-promise u-turning in Oz at the moment. Worth reading about.
The previous Liberal (tory) government brought in a staged set of tax breaks, including changes well beyond their electoral term. Labor - in order to get elected - agreed to maintain the tax breaks. After a couple of years in office, the stage 3 tax breaks are looming. They involve people earning over ~$200K getting a $10K pa tax break, while lower income earners get almost nothing. Labor says 'we can't do that during a cost of living crisis' and change it so that lower income earners get some of the tax break, while high earners get less of one (they still get a $5K break, not the full $10K). The Libs and the media launch into the "flip flop, broken promises, can't trust Labor narrative". But ... the reality is that the government have chosen to improve the finances of the majority of Australians, while the rich are still getting a tax break. There is nothing that the Libs can say that will stick. Flip-flopping doesn't look so bad when its in the interests of the electorate.
 
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PottersRightBoot said:
‘What’s that coming over the hill, is it a policy , is it a policy?’🎶

No. False alarm. Labour Party are useless.
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But so are your lot? And you would still vote for them if they came up with putting a crazy woman in charge who tried to bankrupt us.

People who vote for the same party come what may are a special kind of special.
 
Essexyellows said:
The West tend to call them dictators, arrange their removal, and then spend decades clearing up the mess after the pot boils over.
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But only if we think we can take them in a fight without being vaporised in the process. Otherwise I'm sure Putin or Xi (and possibly even Kim) would be long gone.
 
PottersRightBoot said:
‘What’s that coming over the hill, is it a policy , is it a policy?’🎶

No. False alarm. Labour Party are useless.
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Nope.

But I can tell what is coming over the hill...and it's a General Election.

Anyone reckon current government will get more seats than the current main opposition party have :unsure:
 
holdsteady said:
People who vote for the same party come what may are a special kind of special.
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Unfortunately, First Past the Post doesn't give me any choice where I live, and I suspect a lot of other voters are in the same boat. We're forced to be tribal, so I'll be voting Labour as usual, even though I'm not particularly enthusiastic about them (either under Corbyn or Starmer, who are broadly left and right of where I sit politically).

I guess I'm Lib Dem or Green by instinct, but more importantly I'm ABT (Anyone But Tory) - for the good of the country we simply have to get rid of the Conservatives. In my consituency (a Lab/Con marginal), a vote for Green or Lib Dem is worse than pointless - it's effectively donating my vote to the one I like less of the two that have a chance of being elected. I'd LOVE to vote for the candidate whose views best match mine, and change my vote now and again depending on the strengths of the candidates and the manifestos, but given the system and the circumstance in my constituency, that is not a rational act. Perversely, it's probably in my interest to encourage my habitual Tory-voting friends to vote Reform (who are even worse).

I'm certainly not Old Labour - I don't really care who owns the means of production, so long as they don't take the P**s. But even if I was sympathetic to Thatcherite policies (which were at least intellectually coherent, even though I don't think they work in practice) the current Conservatives are beyond the pale, and I hope a lot of moderate Tories come to the same conclusion. They're not a serious party any more. They've trashed British politics. They've been hijacked by an unholy mixture of the Hyacinth Buckets and golf-club bigots who run their local associations, and the Atlanticist thinktanks, shadowy non-doms and tax-exile newspaper proprietors that fund them and propagandise for them. They've now appointed (at least) three leaders in a row who has each been terrible in their own different ways. Their policies are little more than populist nonsense and infantile culture-war slogans, and they're showing worrying signs of wanting to weaken the constitutional safeguards that are supposed to keep everybody (not just them) honest. Even some of the more reflective Tory MPs seem to acknowledge that they've run out of steam and need a spell in opposition.

When I told my smear-campaigning rabble-rousing Tory candidate in 2019 that no, he couldn't rely on my vote, his very words were "I hope you vote Green then". Of course he did, because he wants to split the vote of the only candidate likely to beat him. So, on the grounds that they've still got a few broadly sensible (if feeble) policies on climate change, inequality and social welfare, some of their senior MPs aren't obvious idiots, and our local Lab candidate seems at least to be a human being, I'll be voting Labour, the clearly lesser of two evils, as I have for the last two decades, even though I wouldn't choose them as my favourite.

FPTP is like being forced to cheer for whichever of Liverpool or Manchester City you dislike least, even though both represent the interests that have shafted the team you actually support. It's depressing, but at least I can take pleasure when my Tory MP loses his job (which, given his majority is less than a thousand, is almost inevitable).
 
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HayfieldYellow said:
Unfortunately, First Past the Post doesn't give me any choice where I live, and I suspect a lot of other voters are in the same boat. We're forced to be tribal, so I'll be voting Labour as usual, even though I'm not particularly enthusiastic about them (either under Corbyn or Starmer, who are broadly left and right of where I sit politically).

I guess I'm Lib Dem or Green by instinct, but more importantly I'm ABT (Anyone But Tory) - for the good of the country we simply have to get rid of the Conservatives. In my consituency (a Lab/Con marginal), a vote for Green or Lib Dem is worse than pointless - it's effectively donating my vote to the one I like less of the two that have a chance of being elected. I'd LOVE to vote for the candidate whose views best match mine, and change my vote now and again depending on the strengths of the candidates and the manifestos, but given the system and the circumstance in my constituency, that is not a rational act. Perversely, it's probably in my interest to encourage my habitual Tory-voting friends to vote Reform (who are even worse).

Even if I was sympathetic to Thatcherite policies (which were are at least rational and consistent, even thought I don't think they work in practice) the current Conservatives are beyond the pale, and I hope a lot of moderate Tories come to the same conclusion. They're not a serious party any more. They've trashed British politics. They've been hijacked by an unholy mixture of the Hyacinth Buckets and golf-club bigots who run their local associations, and the Atlanticist thinktanks, shadowy non-doms and tax-exile newspaper proprietors that fund them and propagandise for them. They've now appointed (at least) three leaders in a row who has each been terrible in their own different ways. Their policies are little more than populist nonsense and infantile culture-war slogans, and they're showing worrying signs of wanting to weaken the constitutional safeguards that are designed to keep everybody (not just them) honest. Even some of the more reflective Tory MPs seem to acknowledge that they've run out of steam and need a spell in opposition.

When I told my smear-campaigning rabble-rousing Tory candidate in 2019 that no, he couldn't rely on my vote, his very words were "I hope you vote Green then". Of course he did, because he wants to reduce the vote of the only candidate likely to beat him. So, on the grounds that they've still got a few broadly sensible (if feeble) policies on climate change, inequality and social welfare, some of their senior MPs aren't obvious idiots, and our local Lab candidate seems at least to be a human being, I'll be voting Labour, the clearly lesser of two evils, as I have for the last two decades, even though I wouldn't choose them as my favourite.

It's like being forced to cheer for whichever of Liverpool or Manchester City you dislike least, even though both represent the interests that have shafted the team you actually support. It's depressing.
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I don’t really disagree with any of that, sign of a party that has been in power to long and sees staying in power as more important than anything else. Personally I think they are out fairly comfortably at the next election, even my missus who doesn’t really care about politics much is very anti them, when you lose 43 year old Karen’s like my missus it’s time to start planning on moving if you are Rishi Sunak.

Still doesn’t mean Labour, the next party in power, can’t step it up a bit and give us some actual policies occasionally, it’s nice to be able to vote for something rather than against something. Although it will probably all end in tears, while no one wants Starmer to go full Blair the country could probably do with a bit of uniting and a bit of a feel good factor, especially the young so I would like Starmer to actually offer a bit of hope rather than just pointing the very obvious failings of the current idiots, he will still have plenty of opportunity to do that.
 
holdsteady said:
Still doesn’t mean Labour, the next party in power, can’t step it up a bit and give us some actual policies occasionally, it’s nice to be able to vote for something rather than against something. Although it will probably all end in tears, while no one wants Starmer to go full Blair the country could probably do with a bit of uniting and a bit of a feel good factor, especially the young so I would like Starmer to actually offer a bit of hope rather than just pointing the very obvious failings of the current idiots, he will still have plenty of opportunity to do that.
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Rather agree, but I'd argue that Starmer has decided that anything he says that contains a faint whiff of socialism is going to be monstered by the tabloids and might frighten off the few hundred-thousand floating voters in marginal consitituencies whose votes actually count. I suppose I should be grateful that I'm one of them, even if my only realistic choice is Labour or Tory. Anyway, it seems to be working if the polls are to be believed. I'm not one of those "they're all the same" people - the Big Two parties are closer than I'd like, but they're not the same. I also assume Starmer knows what sort of mess he's going to be left with and wants to temper expectations.

The more I think about it, the more perverse it is: if you live in a safe seat you can vote for whoever you like because it won't make any difference; if you're politically engaged but you live in a seat that actually matters, you have to compromise. The main people to win over are the people who don't really follow politics and don't care much. To extend my football analogy: to win, the team has to play the way that will please the people who don't like, or even understand, football.
 
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HayfieldYellow said:
Unfortunately, First Past the Post doesn't give me any choice where I live, and I suspect a lot of other voters are in the same boat. We're forced to be tribal, so I'll be voting Labour as usual, even though I'm not particularly enthusiastic about them (either under Corbyn or Starmer, who are broadly left and right of where I sit politically).

I guess I'm Lib Dem or Green by instinct, but more importantly I'm ABT (Anyone But Tory) - for the good of the country we simply have to get rid of the Conservatives. In my consituency (a Lab/Con marginal), a vote for Green or Lib Dem is worse than pointless - it's effectively donating my vote to the one I like less of the two that have a chance of being elected. I'd LOVE to vote for the candidate whose views best match mine, and change my vote now and again depending on the strengths of the candidates and the manifestos, but given the system and the circumstance in my constituency, that is not a rational act. Perversely, it's probably in my interest to encourage my habitual Tory-voting friends to vote Reform (who are even worse).

I'm certainly not Old Labour - I don't really care who owns the means of production, so long as they don't take the P**s. But even if I was sympathetic to Thatcherite policies (which were at least intellectually coherent, even though I don't think they work in practice) the current Conservatives are beyond the pale, and I hope a lot of moderate Tories come to the same conclusion. They're not a serious party any more. They've trashed British politics. They've been hijacked by an unholy mixture of the Hyacinth Buckets and golf-club bigots who run their local associations, and the Atlanticist thinktanks, shadowy non-doms and tax-exile newspaper proprietors that fund them and propagandise for them. They've now appointed (at least) three leaders in a row who has each been terrible in their own different ways. Their policies are little more than populist nonsense and infantile culture-war slogans, and they're showing worrying signs of wanting to weaken the constitutional safeguards that are supposed to keep everybody (not just them) honest. Even some of the more reflective Tory MPs seem to acknowledge that they've run out of steam and need a spell in opposition.

When I told my smear-campaigning rabble-rousing Tory candidate in 2019 that no, he couldn't rely on my vote, his very words were "I hope you vote Green then". Of course he did, because he wants to split the vote of the only candidate likely to beat him. So, on the grounds that they've still got a few broadly sensible (if feeble) policies on climate change, inequality and social welfare, some of their senior MPs aren't obvious idiots, and our local Lab candidate seems at least to be a human being, I'll be voting Labour, the clearly lesser of two evils, as I have for the last two decades, even though I wouldn't choose them as my favourite.

FPTP is like being forced to cheer for whichever of Liverpool or Manchester City you dislike least, even though both represent the interests that have shafted the team you actually support. It's depressing, but at least I can take pleasure when my Tory MP loses his job (which, given his majority is less than a thousand, is almost inevitable).
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I would describe myself as a moderate Tory, but this lot have moved so far away from traditional Tory values that they will not be getting my vote.

Labour doesn't provide all the answers to the issues we're facing right now, but they at least appear to be listening and at least pretending to care, where as the Tories just seem to be deliberately cruel in some much of what they say and do. The getting rid of the homeless tents, the mocking of the cost of living crisis, and this crazy obsession about what determines a woman is just playing to a very small and angry minority.

Personally, I have no issue with Keir Starmer or Labour u-turning at this stage. I want politicians to be able to adapt to an ever changing picture and adjust their position accordingly. That's more serious politics than being tied to something you said 2 years ago before our economy crashed. For balance, I equally haven't got an issue with the Government changing tack when situations change. However, its difficult to do this with integrity if the reason for changes is because of your own failures previously, especially when this happens over and over again.

My constituency has changed and now comes under Bicester and Woodstock, and there is the potential for a 3 way split in the next election. It would need a seriously cold day in Hell for me to vote for the cretin of a Green candidate, and Calum Miller and the Lib Dems in general, present a greater risk to the stadium project than either Labour or the Tories, so I will almost certainly find myself voting for Labour despite never having done so at a GE before.
 
I’m really unsure on what to do. I’ve been a Conservative voter at times, Labour once, and UKIP a couple of times. None of them excite me. The Conservatives seem determined to lose by continually putting their foot in it. Labour don’t seem to have a clear plan either although they do appear to have a conscience wanting to help people who need a step up.
Watching the dental queues in Bristol makes you wonder how far this country has to fall in terms of poverty. I wonder too why the government always find money for grandiose projects like HS2 and sending money overseas when its own people have little.
The Conservatives have not necessarily lost the next election, as a many voters who are retired will remember the triple lock, but there will also be a lot of women WASPI who will not forgive them for losing on £50000 of pension payments because of the increase in retirement age.
I think the election will be on Thursday October 10…exactly 50 years after Harold Wilson won for Labour in 1974
 
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