National News Covidiots.....

[Sheik djibouti]

And more Covidiocy: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-53215121

 

[Scotchegg]

Two things about that.
Firstly are you sure it is correct? Is a simple fabric mask enough to guarantee your safety? 100%? Because most people are NOT buying medical grade masks (and at one point were asked not to), even those who are sensible enough to wear one at all. How many of the beach goers were wearing masks, gloves etc?
Secondly, Social distancing at such events. People might well start off with the best of intentions, but it soon breaks down - just look at the pictures. I'd be willing to bet a pound to a penny that come Sunday morning we have images of crowded pubs and areas just outside pubs being shown around.
So while you *might* be right, those conditions simply will not happen.

Social distancing is the main thing. Stay 2 metres or more away and (particularly in open spaces) the virus will disperse before it can infect others. There are points when social distancing isn't possible, and yes, fabric masks will hugely reduce the risk of the virus being passed on. Medical grade masks are needed for medical grade reasons, such as prolonged exposure to known cases.

So whilst it is difficult to say 100% for anything, appropriate measures will reduce the risk by 99% or more.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

Social distancing is the main thing. Stay 2 metres or more away and (particularly in open spaces) the virus will disperse before it can infect others. There are points when social distancing isn't possible, and yes, fabric masks will hugely reduce the risk of the virus being passed on. Medical grade masks are needed for medical grade reasons, such as prolonged exposure to known cases.

So whilst it is difficult to say 100% for anything, appropriate measures will reduce the risk by 99% or more.

That is good to know.
But the substantive point remains that the people on the beaches and having illegal raves are in the vast majority NOT wearing any sort of PPE or strictly observing social distancing. And I strongly suspect the same will be true of those getting bladdered on Saturday when the pubs open or those celebrating their team's promotion.
So it doesn't matter how effective these measures may be, because people won't be using them anyway - and that being the case you (well the authorities!) have to somehow try to stop people congregating. Whether that is legislation, or the police turning people away, or some more consistent and stronger messaging from government (although the horse may have bolted there) or a mixture of all of that, I don't know.
It's no good just leaving it up to many people, as we have seen - telling them to use their best judgement is taken as 'do what you want'.

 

[Scotchegg]

That is good to know.
But the substantive point remains that the people on the beaches and having illegal raves are in the vast majority NOT wearing any sort of PPE or strictly observing social distancing. And I strongly suspect the same will be true of those getting bladdered on Saturday when the pubs open or those celebrating their team's promotion.
So it doesn't matter how effective these measures may be, because people won't be using them anyway - and that being the case you (well the authorities!) have to somehow try to stop people congregating. Whether that is legislation, or the police turning people away, or some more consistent and stronger messaging from government (although the horse may have bolted there) or a mixture of all of that, I don't know.
It's no good just leaving it up to many people, as we have seen - telling them to use their best judgement is taken as 'do what you want'.

The examples you've given are the extremes, but the vasr majority were able to enjoy the beaches last week without putting themselves or others at risk. In the same way that most people can socially gather with other households safely without the need for illegal street parties.

The view of Ryan (and I think supported by you) is that the Government should ban all such gatgerings regardless of risk, and that these bans should then be enforced with people removed from society if they refuse! Not exactly proportionate or liberal is it?

 

[MC Yellow]

It’s really not that difficult to my mind, but I’ve obviously failed in finding even the most basic of pure principle as to how laws and rules benefit society, and why they really matter. I thought it would be pretty commonly felt that making a firm rule and actively enforcing it means the vast majority of people stop in their tracks, because that’s how society works on almost every other level, but apparently not. Yes, a few won’t listen, but they then become policeable as their numbers are so modest and they stand out so are easier caught and identified.

If that constitutes blaming the government for everything - merely pointing out the quickest and simplest way that they could improve things even by a few percent - so be it. I merely consider it common sense.

I think the issues in Leicester will be an acid test for this. If they have to go into a localised lockdown extension whilst the rest of the country move on to the next phase of easing, it will be tough for them.

What you say is correct of course in that restrictions need to come down from above. I have said earlier in the thread that the government need to act quickly to stop these problems on the beaches... I am however getting the impression that more and more people have just become fed up of all of this and we have already seen the fabric of society tested recently on many occasions.

Many may well adhere to rules but I am more and more aware now of people having friends back in their houses or larger family gatherings etc. I wonder how many people have now sneaked off to their holiday retreat undetected?

Yes the government should take measures, but it shouldn’t mean that it is “okay“ for people to be selfish and ignore basic common sense... I can manage it, you can manage it, so why can‘t they?.

I am sorry but I just can’t blame the government for other people’s selfishness.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

The examples you've given are the extremes, but the vasr majority were able to enjoy the beaches last week without putting themselves or others at risk. In the same way that most people can socially gather with other households safely without the need for illegal street parties.

The view of Ryan (and I think supported by you) is that the Government should ban all such gatgerings regardless of risk, and that these bans should then be enforced with people removed from society if they refuse! Not exactly proportionate or liberal is it?

This is a health crisis. It is *still* a health crisis.
Should people be stopped going to isolated beaches in sensible numbers? It's not something I'd like to see really.
Should there be some sort of provision for *someone* to put their foot down once people start taking the p!ss? Yes. At the moment local authorities do not have the powers or the manpower to shut beaches, roads to beaches etc or to clear beaches when they get too full. And the same applies to pubs. I do not believe for an instant that the country will be full of pubs with people staying 2m apart from each other, happily sipping halves of shandy through masks while hand sanitising. Good luck to all publicans trying to get their beered-up stir-crazy punters to abide by any sensible rules and trying to chuck them out if they don't. (Many of the pubs in my nearest town are NOT opening on Saturday, because they can see exactly those problems happening)
So while I don't think there ought to be a blanket ban on all people going to all beaches etc, I think that either existing powers have to be used, or new ones put in place, to give police/local authorities the ability to stop such things getting out of hand. Once you have a beach full of 300,000 people it is too late.
Without wishing to put words into Ryan's mouth, I think his point is that by saying 'the beaches are closed' you are sending a clear message and that in itself will deter a hell of a lot of people driving from Birmingham to Bournemouth for a jolly day lying on the sand and crapping in the sea. (And there's an additional health hazard for you right there!)

 

[Scotchegg]

So you want the Government to close all beaches? What about parks? Nature reserves? All social gatherings whether inside or out? And if this is the case, when will it be safe in your view to open up again?

 

[ZeroTheHero]

So you want the Government to close all beaches? What about parks? Nature reserves? All social gatherings whether inside or out? And if this is the case, when will it be safe in your view to open up again?

You didn't read what I wrote.
I want the government (or more likely local authorities and police forces) to have the *power* to do that *very* quickly *if* they are being misused and becoming overcrowded, without proper sanitation and precautions. I don't particularly care for the idea of a blanket ban of anything - it's neither proportionate nor enforceable.

 

[chuckbert]

There is absolutely no reason why ALL beaches need to close. Friends of mine went to Highcliffe beach last week, 20 minutes or so from Bournemouth. The place was at about 5-10% capacity with loads of space between families, with barely a crisp packet left behind.

Another friend lives just outside Exeter and has been on the beach most days with barely a soul around her. Equally Brighton and numerous other places were controlled.

Places such as Bournemouth were out of control, and existing legislation allows for mass gatherings to be dispersed. This wasn't enacted, but it was made clear that further action would be taken if repeated.

Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is being lost in the need to blame the Government, and that serves no purpose.

Maybe in order to get people to pay attention you do need everyone to be inconvenienced? I’m sure your friends had a lovely time, but maybe they could have coped with missing out? A bit like the whole class being in detention because two kids were naughty.
If there’s ever a time for authoritarianism, it’s when people are getting sick and dying.

Regarding your last point, I think you’re wrong. The govt haven’t acted. Remember early on when too many people went to Bondi beach? From that day onwards, it was closed for weeks (until the weather got crap). The equivalent in this case would have been for the govt to say “Because of all you morons going to the Bournemouth beach without distancing or using PPE we will now have to close it until further notice.”

I’m with Ryan here - it is mind-blowing that the only outcome from this is the usual media outrage and no actual action. And then everyone will be shocked when it happens again. It’s all fun and games until there’s a spike of contagion associated with it and then everyone will be jumping over each other to blame someone.

 

[Essexyellows]

Just a bit of a "local Leicester" update.
Most of the figures are (roughly) 2 weeks in arrears...... if (big if!) they decide to do anything locally it`s probably too late.
Local politico`s are suggesting the rest of the country moves forward on the 4th July..... we have to wait until 18th or so. Again it`s too late.

Totally impractical and completely un-enforcable unless you have checkpoints on every major road in and out folk will just go to Brum, Cov or Nottingham to shop/eat etc.

 

[Scotchegg]

Maybe in order to get people to pay attention you do need everyone to be inconvenienced? I’m sure your friends had a lovely time, but maybe they could have coped with missing out? A bit like the whole class being in detention because two kids were naughty.

The whole class has been in detention for 3 months, and many have followed the rules by the letter. Even now, most managed to go to beaches, parks and open spaces and act entirely responsibly. They presented no risk to themselves or others. The infection rate has remained below 1 for most areas for a few weeks now, so why restricted the many for the actions of a few?

I want the government (or more likely local authorities and police forces) to have the *power* to do that *very* quickly *if* they are being misused and becoming overcrowded.

That power exists but wasn't used. That was a failure of the police not the Government.

 

[Oxymoron]

From our experience, even the measure's outlined have minimal effect on "the mob".

A month or so back, "Chinnor Lakes" became the #1 attraction, with gatherings being openly planned on social media. The police said "Don't come". The council (both district and local said "Don't come". The land owners said "Don't come". Security was brought in to patrol both inside and outside the site. Roads and access' were blocked to prevent parking near the lakes. A fence was erected along any public boundary. The BBC and ITV both ran features in their local programs to urge people to stay away.

Anyway, they came. They drove from Kent, from Luton, from Northampton. The majority were car loads of young singles, but family units with toddlers also came. They couldn't get onto the site, so they parked up anywhere they could and set out to find another way in. Those locals that remonstrated were verbally abused. They broke down fences to get into the nature reserve next door and went through the animal sanctuary and eventually found an unguarded route. So many entered, the security could not hold them back and once there, the police were unable to remove them A dispersal order was enacted but people just carried on with their BBQ's and beers.

When they did deign to leave that evening there were "disputes" between some groups of the visitors and petty theft and vandalism. The rubbish left behind was appalling and included drug paraphernalia, so the council had to send out special collection teams. The animals from the sanctuary were able to escape through the damaged fences, so once rounded up needed to be kept in pens.

In today's society, people "have rights" and are not held responsible for their actions - changing that mindset will not be easy.

 

[Junior_1]

Just read that a cow has died from eating plastic and 5 horses/10 cows were treated for glass cuts on port meadow because these C***s didn’t take their rubbish away with them [emoji35][emoji35]

Sadly, doesn’t surprise me. The place when the weather is good, is a right s**t hole.

 

[holdsteady]

Just a bit of a "local Leicester" update.
Most of the figures are (roughly) 2 weeks in arrears...... if (big if!) they decide to do anything locally it`s probably too late.
Local politico`s are suggesting the rest of the country moves forward on the 4th July..... we have to wait until 18th or so. Again it`s too late.

Totally impractical and completely un-enforcable unless you have checkpoints on every major road in and out folk will just go to Brum, Cov or Nottingham to shop/eat etc.

That’s what I have wondered about local lockdowns, no one has explained how exactly they will work, how local they will be etc? In a small country with some areas very densely populated what/where will be s**t down? What’s to stop people just wandering to the nearest area that isn’t shutdown?

I have a feeling that localised lockdowns was just a sound bite with no thought actually going into the (in)practicalities of making it work.

 

[Essexyellows]

As I get to see the data that flows around healthcare it isn`t difficult to work out what to do.
Receive test data - sort by postcode - sort by street.
Very quickly you have very local clusters.
Then do what PH England do and go door to door.
If needs be isolate a street or two and implement mandatory testing.

Too easy?

 

[ZeroTheHero]

As I get to see the data that flows around healthcare it isn`t difficult to work out what to do.
Receive test data - sort by postcode - sort by street.
Very quickly you have very local clusters.
Then do what PH England do and go door to door.
If needs be isolate a street or two and implement mandatory testing.

Too easy?

Sounds logical.
Is the data available to the local health authorities at that level of detail to allow them to do that? (I know my local authority was having terrible trouble getting details of what was actually happening in Bedford at any level of granularity)
*Can* tests be make mandatory at the moment? And what *could* local authorities do to make people stay in until the results were back (and then again if results were positive)?

 

[mooro]

As I get to see the data that flows around healthcare it isn`t difficult to work out what to do.
Receive test data - sort by postcode - sort by street.
Very quickly you have very local clusters.
Then do what PH England do and go door to door.
If needs be isolate a street or two and implement mandatory testing.

Too easy?

One concern here is the prospect of people/communities being labelled as spreaders and then vigilante repercussions being enacted.
Eg. Covidiots' gran gets it and dies, thug heads out to 'infection street' and torches a couple of houses in revenge.

 

[Essexyellows]

Sounds logical.
Is the data available to the local health authorities at that level of detail to allow them to do that? (I know my local authority was having terrible trouble getting details of what was actually happening in Bedford at any level of granularity)
*Can* tests be make mandatory at the moment? And what *could* local authorities do to make people stay in until the results were back (and then again if results were positive)?

The data is available, if somewhat belated, and definitely at postcode/street level.
I doubt mandatory testing is legal ........ just my inner self wishing!! lol
Thing is the "surge" has happened.... its done...... time to act has passed by!

 

[Essexyellows]

One concern here is the prospect of people/communities being labelled as spreaders and then vigilante repercussions being enacted.
Eg. Covidiots' gran gets it and dies, thug heads out to 'infection street' and torches a couple of houses in revenge.

Everyone locally already knows where the hotspot`s are by council ward.
I have higher/more realistic opinion of the local folk than thinking anyone would break out the burning torches and pitchforks.

 

[Gary Baldi]

From our experience, even the measure's outlined have minimal effect on "the mob".

A month or so back, "Chinnor Lakes" became the #1 attraction, with gatherings being openly planned on social media. The police said "Don't come". The council (both district and local said "Don't come". The land owners said "Don't come". Security was brought in to patrol both inside and outside the site. Roads and access' were blocked to prevent parking near the lakes. A fence was erected along any public boundary. The BBC and ITV both ran features in their local programs to urge people to stay away.

Anyway, they came. They drove from Kent, from Luton, from Northampton. The majority were car loads of young singles, but family units with toddlers also came. They couldn't get onto the site, so they parked up anywhere they could and set out to find another way in. Those locals that remonstrated were verbally abused. They broke down fences to get into the nature reserve next door and went through the animal sanctuary and eventually found an unguarded route. So many entered, the security could not hold them back and once there, the police were unable to remove them A dispersal order was enacted but people just carried on with their BBQ's and beers.

When they did deign to leave that evening there were "disputes" between some groups of the visitors and petty theft and vandalism. The rubbish left behind was appalling and included drug paraphernalia, so the council had to send out special collection teams. The animals from the sanctuary were able to escape through the damaged fences, so once rounded up needed to be kept in pens.

In today's society, people "have rights" and are not held responsible for their actions - changing that mindset will not be easy.

The Police need to first tell people to turnaround and go home but if they don't do that (make a note of car number plate/name), regularly patrol/use ANPR, arrest and charge the individuals who break those local conditions - the Police wasted a lot of good will going after lone dog walkers in the Peak District and not dealing with the larger issues such as Chinnor Lakes or places like Brixton.

When the public understand that there are consequences, most will think twice... Or just think