National News Nottingham Stabbings

[Mojofilter]

Couple of caveats before posing this question:

- I am 100%, unequivocally opposed to the death penalty in any circumstance
- I don't dispute the validity of mental health conditions nor support the assertion they can easily be 'faked'

Here's my question: isn't anyone who commits a heinous crime such as murder 'not of sound mind'? Whether or not it's a voice in their head, 'something' is telling them to commit the act.

No, I think there are lots of people who murder but aren't insane. They are aware of the consequences and do it anyway.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

Here's my question: isn't anyone who commits a heinous crime such as murder 'not of sound mind'? Whether or not it's a voice in their head, 'something' is telling them to commit the act.

No, I think there are some people who are so greedy they murder for money, some that have an inflated idea of 'honour' if they have been 'wronged', some who will murder for a 'cause' etc etc.

Most of us would never dream of doing something like that - and I agree that to us, the very idea of murdering someone means they must be mentally ill, but I don't think it is true.

 

[MustardYellow]

No, I think there are lots of people who murder but aren't insane. They are aware of the consequences and do it anyway.

And this is exactly why things like the death penalty, life sentences etc don't deter crime. Some crimes are committed in the heat of the moment, some are committed after a series of events which alters the way an individual thinks/perceives the world.

After I left school I worked with people who had been released from prison and it was eye-opening.

 

[Marked Ox]

This case was captured on CCTV, Police body cam, etc etc and he admitted his guilt. Just wondering where "doubt" comes into it?

And it is now off to the Attorney General to review if he should have been sentenced in the way he was or something more stringent applied.

You raised cases with 'no doubt' and the implication based off the US system for these exceptional cases. There have been plenty of 'no doubt' convictions which then have proved to be wrong.

 

[MustardYellow]

Valdo Calocane: Review into decision to accept triple killer's pleas

The attorney general orders a review into how prosecutors handled the Nottingham attacks case.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Essexyellows]

You raised cases with 'no doubt' and the implication based off the US system for these exceptional cases. There have been plenty of 'no doubt' convictions which then have proved to be wrong.

This is not wrong.
There is no doubt by any normal measure.
3 murders.
3 attempted murders.
Captured on CCTV and police bodycam.
Admitted his guilt.
There is not the slightest doubt that he committed the crimes.
The crimes he preempted by going out armed.

Valdo Calocane: Review into decision to accept triple killer's pleas

The attorney general orders a review into how prosecutors handled the Nottingham attacks case.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Marked Ox]

This is not wrong.
There is no doubt by any normal measure.
3 murders.
3 attempted murders.
Captured on CCTV and police bodycam.
Admitted his guilt.
There is not the slightest doubt that he committed the crimes.
The crimes he preempted by going out armed.

Valdo Calocane: Review into decision to accept triple killer's pleas

The attorney general orders a review into how prosecutors handled the Nottingham attacks case.

www.bbc.co.uk

It doesn't change the point anyway, other slam dunk 'no doubt' cases have been found to be wrong. The death sentence is nothing more than vengeance rather than justice.

 

[Essexyellows]

It doesn't change the point anyway, other slam dunk 'no doubt' cases have been found to be wrong. The death sentence is nothing more than vengeance rather than justice.

As earlier - exceptionally heinous crimes, premeditated and 100% without doubt, and in this case there is absolutely nil, deserve the most severe punishment reserved for such cases. No mission creep just such cases.

Ultimate justice or vengeance is almost a moot point.

 

[chuckbert]

As earlier - exceptionally heinous crimes, premeditated and 100% without doubt, and in this case there is absolutely nil, deserve the most severe punishment reserved for such cases. No mission creep just such cases.

Ultimate justice or vengeance is almost a moot point.

Choosing to kill people for institutionalised punishment is already “mission creep”. No thanks.

 

[Marked Ox]

As earlier - exceptionally heinous crimes, premeditated and 100% without doubt, and in this case there is absolutely nil, deserve the most severe punishment reserved for such cases. No mission creep just such cases.

Ultimate justice or vengeance is almost a moot point.

As earlier cases '100% without doubt', whether exceptional or not, have been found to be wrong before.

 

[holdsteady]

As earlier cases '100% without doubt', whether exceptional or not, have been found to be wrong before.

Not in this case though, whatever you think should happen to him nobody can be in doubt that he actually did it.

 

[Essexyellows]

As earlier cases '100% without doubt', whether exceptional or not, have been found to be wrong before.

As posted there are exceptional cases where there is absolutely no doubt.

We aren`t talking Birmingham Six here. Technology, available evidence and the standard of that evidence has moved on massively.

Set a high threshold for exceptional murders - multiple, premeditated, unusually cruel offences.

Since 1990 there have only been 16 such cases. 4 of whom have since died in prison, 1 took their own life before trial.

Not an American style system.

 

[Mojofilter]

As posted there are exceptional cases where there is absolutely no doubt.

We aren`t talking Birmingham Six here. Technology, available evidence and the standard of that evidence has moved on massively.

Set a high threshold for exceptional murders - multiple, premeditated, unusually cruel offences.

Since 1990 there have only been 16 such cases. 4 of whom have since died in prison, 1 took their own life before trial.

Not an American style system.

It feels like you're working reallllly hard to find a space where it's ok for the state to kill someone. Why such a fervour for it?

 

[Marked Ox]

Not in this case though, whatever you think should happen to him nobody can be in doubt that he actually did it.

I didn't say otherwise about this case.

My point was against the death penalty. EY keeps saying for exceptional 100% 'no doubt' cases, yet such claimed cases have been found to be wrong later. Under EY's system those people would be dead.

 

[Marked Ox]

As posted there are exceptional cases where there is absolutely no doubt.

We aren`t talking Birmingham Six here. Technology, available evidence and the standard of that evidence has moved on massively.

Set a high threshold for exceptional murders - multiple, premeditated, unusually cruel offences.

Since 1990 there have only been 16 such cases. 4 of whom have since died in prison, 1 took their own life before trial.

Not an American style system.

And yet people still get wrongly convicted.

Are you advocating judicial raping of convicted rapists who are exceptionally cruel who have raped on multiple occasions? If not, why not? Rape after all can ruin somebody's life even if they are alive so why is it so different?

 

[MustardYellow]

Andrew Malkinson spent 17 years in prison for a rape he didn't commit. Some people would have had him killed for it.

The system is flawed - the death penalty undoubtedly kills innocent people in the countries it's practised in.

All of that is sort of irrelevant though, considering it's barbaric to be killing people for doing wrong anyway.

 

[Essexyellows]

I didn't say otherwise about this case.

My point was against the death penalty. EY keeps saying for exceptional 100% 'no doubt' cases, yet such claimed cases have been found to be wrong later. Under EY's system those people would be dead.

No they wouldn`t.

Show me a case of multiple murders since 1990 where there was a wrongful conviction. I can wait.

I accept there have been wrongful convictions for single murders, but those people wouldn't have been dead, only exceptional cases of multiple murders.

And yet people still get wrongly convicted.

Are you advocating judicial raping of convicted rapists who are exceptionally cruel who have raped on multiple occasions? If not, why not? Rape after all can ruin somebody's life even if they are alive so why is it so different?

Nope the prison system is sufficient to deal with them.

I`m advocating an exceptional punishment for exceptional crimes.

 

[Marked Ox]

No they wouldn`t.

Show me a case of multiple murders since 1990 where there was a wrongful conviction. I can wait.

I accept there have been wrongful convictions for single murders, but those people wouldn't have been dead, only exceptional cases of multiple murders.



Nope the prison system is sufficient to deal with them.

I`m advocating an exceptional punishment for exceptional crimes.

So somebody doing multiple rapes and ruining multiple people's lives isn't exceptional?

 

[MustardYellow]

And yet people still get wrongly convicted.

Are you advocating judicial raping of convicted rapists who are exceptionally cruel who have raped on multiple occasions? If not, why not? Rape after all can ruin somebody's life even if they are alive so why is it so different?

Technically anything can ruin someone's life. People who have been victims of things like home invasions/burglaries can develop very serious mental health conditions, be scared in their own home, paranoid etc.

Even things that aren't illegal can destroy someone's life.

I really don't understand how people decide what's 'bad' enough to warrant the killing of someone.

 

[QR]

As earlier - exceptionally heinous crimes, premeditated and 100% without doubt, and in this case there is absolutely nil, deserve the most severe punishment reserved for such cases. No mission creep just such cases.

Ultimate justice or vengeance is almost a moot point.

So taking account of all you have said on this case and the parameters you state about are you saying your are happy to execute the mentally ill?