International News Covid Passport....

LeftSideBoy

Well-known member
Joined
24 Jul 2018
Messages
2,311
You aren't. Don't get vaccinated if you don't want to. If things are opened first to people who have been vaccinated, then so be it, you'll have to wait. Nobody will force a vaccine in you.
That’s not how coercion works though, is it? Coercion would be limiting my freedom to the point where my life becomes unliveable and I have no choice but to become vaccinated, in order to regain some degree of normality. Of course no one is going to forcibly vaccinate you; they are too clever for that. They will make your life unliveable without it and use the carrot of freedom, to coerce you into getting vaccinated.

Do you honestly think you will be able to lead a normal life, without getting this vaccine? No chance. If that was an option, why the need for vaccine passports? You will either get the vaccine or you will be alienated from society.

They are already beginning to label unvaccinated people in America as a ‘danger to society’. Don’t you find that a bit odd, given the fact this is supposed to be a choice we are free to make?

Many people that I have spoken to are healthy, and they are definitely not getting vaccinated for the sake of their health. They are getting vaccinated so that they can return to normality and get their freedom back. Carrot and stick. Coercion.
 
Last edited:

SteMerritt

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
8 Dec 2017
Messages
5,477
That’s not how coercion works though, is it? Coercion would be limiting my freedom to the point where my life becomes unliveable and I have no choice but to become vaccinated, in order to regain some degree of normality. Of course no one is going to forcibly vaccinate you; they are too clever for that. They will make your life unliveable without it and use the carrot of freedom, to coerce you into getting vaccinated.

Do you honestly think you will be able to lead a normal life, without getting this vaccine? No chance. If that was an option, why the need for vaccine passports? You will either get the vaccine or you will be alienated from society.

They are already beginning to label unvaccinated people in America as a ‘danger to society’. Don’t you find that a bit odd, given the fact this is supposed to be a choice we are free to make?

Many people that I have spoken to are healthy and they are definitely not getting vaccinated for the sake of their health. They are getting vaccinated so that they can return to normality and get their freedom back. Carrot and stick. Coercion.
I think you are over reacting. Preventative vaccination programs aren't exactly new. Healthy people get the MMR jabs.

If you don't want to do it, then don't.
 

LeftSideBoy

Well-known member
Joined
24 Jul 2018
Messages
2,311
I think you are over reacting. Preventative vaccination programs aren't exactly new. Healthy people get the MMR jabs.

If you don't want to do it, then don't.
Ste, I’m afraid many are under-reacting. We are on a slippery slope and the warning signs are there. This vaccine isn’t preventative. It is experimental. There isn’t anywhere near enough short term or mid to long term data or testing to suggest this prevents anything at all. How long did the MMR jab take to develop? 8 years and even then, it wasn’t anywhere near as effective as it is today. These things take years, not a matter of months!

It may be a case of “if you don’t want to, then don’t” but I’m afraid, in time, that decision will be taken out of your hands in the name of public safety. I’m telling you now, this will end badly for society.
 
Last edited:

SteMerritt

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
8 Dec 2017
Messages
5,477
Ste, I’m afraid many are under-reacting. We are on a slippery slope and the warning signs are there. This vaccine isn’t preventative. It is experimental. There isn’t anywhere near enough short term or mid to long term data or testing to suggest this prevents anything at all. How long did the MMR jab take to develop? 8 years and even then, it wasn’t anywhere near as effective as it is today. These things take years, not a matter of months!
It's a coronavirus, scientists have been researching coronavirus strains for years, they didn't start from scratch. Technology advances at a quick pace.

As I said, if you don't want to take the vaccine, then fine, that's your choice. You won't be forced.
 

Scotchegg

Well-known member
Joined
14 Dec 2017
Messages
6,512
Ste, I’m afraid many are under-reacting. We are on a slippery slope and the warning signs are there. This vaccine isn’t preventative. It is experimental. There isn’t anywhere near enough short term or mid to long term data or testing to suggest this prevents anything at all. How long did the MMR jab take to develop? 8 years and even then, it wasn’t anywhere near as effective as it is today. These things take years, not a matter of months!

The stats are there for all to see. Vaccinate vast numbers of the population starting with the most vulnerable and positive cases, hospital numbers and deaths fall. Or has that all happened through luck?
 

Manorlounger

Well-known member
Joined
6 Dec 2017
Messages
4,355
Your forcing the vaccination to become mandatory which may actually make some people do the absolute opposite or cause more issues.

Can understand to go abroad etc, but not the local shops/pub etc
Nonsense, I am merely stating that I have no problem with carrying proof of vaccination.
 

LeftSideBoy

Well-known member
Joined
24 Jul 2018
Messages
2,311
The stats are there for all to see. Vaccinate vast numbers of the population starting with the most vulnerable and positive cases, hospital numbers and deaths fall. Or has that all happened through luck?
Being in lockdown for months will have played its part. The same thing happened last year, when we were locked down for long periods. If those that are vaccinated are still unable to freely mix with other people that are also vaccinated, is it really that effective and preventative? I’m not suggesting it’s entirely ineffective, I’m suggesting there is a bigger agenda at hand here.

And as far as the data goes, I don’t trust it as far as I can metaphorically throw it: https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.s...nto-public-health-england-death-data-12030392

“Essentially, there is no way to recover, statistically. So, if I tested positive for COVID-19 today and then I got hit by a bus tomorrow, then COVID-19 would be listed as my cause of death."

That’s a bit odd, don’t you think?

Combine that with the ‘deaths within 28 days of a positive COVID test’ terminology and I’m sure you can forgive my skepticism. I don’t trust this government, nor it’s pseudoscience.
 
Last edited:

Scotchegg

Well-known member
Joined
14 Dec 2017
Messages
6,512
Being in lockdown for months will have played its part. The same thing happened last year, when we were locked down for long periods. If those that are vaccinated are still unable to freely mix with other people that are also vaccinated, is it really that effective and preventative? I’m not suggesting it’s entirely ineffective, I’m suggesting there is a bigger agenda at hand here.

And as far as the data goes, I don’t trust it as far as I can metaphorically throw it: https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.s...nto-public-health-england-death-data-12030392

“Essentially, there is no way to recover, statistically. So, if I tested positive for COVID-19 today and then I got hit by a bus tomorrow, then COVID-19 would be listed as my cause of death."

Combine that with the ‘deaths within 28 days of a positive COVID test’ terminology and I’m sure you can forgive my skepticism. I don’t trust this government, nor it’s pseudoscience.
Respectfully you're wrong with so much of that.
 

LeftSideBoy

Well-known member
Joined
24 Jul 2018
Messages
2,311
Respectfully you're wrong with so much of that.
Please, go on..

Im not sure how it’s wrong to be suspicious of a government that has openly admitted to including non-COVID deaths as COVID deaths, but fair enough.

I’m also not sure how it’s wrong to look at the fact we have gone from “2 weeks to protect the NHS” to you need a vaccine passport to live a normal life, as something quite worrying for society.

If the government were transparent and handled this in a way that other countries had, then fine. Tin foil hat for me. I’m afraid I’m not alone in my mistrusting of these people. History shows that when a government takes away the freedom of a population, they rarely, if ever, get that freedom back.
 
Last edited:

Scotchegg

Well-known member
Joined
14 Dec 2017
Messages
6,512
Please, go on..
There have been lockdowns throughout Europe without the same drop off in numbers. The one and only thing that really prevents infections is the vaccination.

You are putting together so many myths and untruths to prove something that isn't there. You say that ALL deaths within 27 days of a positive covid case are counted, but not only are those clearly killed by a bus discounted, but even if they weren't how would that account for 125000 deaths in a year? You talk of rushed vaccination, but the science was already there and only needed to be adapt to the strain of this virus. With the vast finances and clinical studies that came with this, several years of progress was very easily achieved in 6/9 months.

And restrictions already exist regarding international travel which is why we get jabs for yellow fever and all sorts. No jabs, no travel. So the only restrictions will be on mass events, and even then it may mean that you need to be tested before attending. Why would this be a problem? Would you want to be at risk from others, or put others at risk from yourself?

So make your own choices, but those choices come with consequences. Have the vaccine when offered, or don't. But please don't try to use fake stories to justify your decision.
 

Manorlounger

Well-known member
Joined
6 Dec 2017
Messages
4,355
That’s good for you, but I think it’ll be counterproductive if it were made mandatory.
Can't see that happening. Always going to be some who can't be vaccinated. I'm due my second jab any day now, looking forward to knowing that I am safer.
 

LeftSideBoy

Well-known member
Joined
24 Jul 2018
Messages
2,311
There have been lockdowns throughout Europe without the same drop off in numbers. The one and only thing that really prevents infections is the vaccination.

You are putting together so many myths and untruths to prove something that isn't there. You say that ALL deaths within 27 days of a positive covid case are counted, but not only are those clearly killed by a bus discounted, but even if they weren't how would that account for 125000 deaths in a year? You talk of rushed vaccination, but the science was already there and only needed to be adapt to the strain of this virus. With the vast finances and clinical studies that came with this, several years of progress was very easily achieved in 6/9 months.

And restrictions already exist regarding international travel which is why we get jabs for yellow fever and all sorts. No jabs, no travel. So the only restrictions will be on mass events, and even then it may mean that you need to be tested before attending. Why would this be a problem? Would you want to be at risk from others, or put others at risk from yourself?

So make your own choices, but those choices come with consequences. Have the vaccine when offered, or don't. But please don't try to use fake stories to justify your decision.
You talk of rushed vaccination, but the science was already there and only needed to be adapt to the strain of this virus. With the vast finances and clinical studies that came with this, several years of progress was very easily achieved in 6/9 months.

Right. You do not vaccinate people who aren't at risk from the disease, without rigorous and long term testing. It doesn’t matter how much money you throw at it, there has to be a testing framework in place. There is no long term data, because they haven’t conducted the proper testing. Do you know what effects it has on fertility, and a persons long term health? No, because it hasn’t gone through the correct testing procedures. You also don't set about planning to vaccinate millions of fit and healthy people with a vaccine that hasn't been extensively tested on animals, let alone human subjects for longer than a period of a few months.

Those deaths may have been discounted but don’t you think it’s a bit convenient that since that time, they have changed the terminology to “deaths within 28 days of a positive COVID test” - Why would they choose to word it like that, if so many people are dying from COVID alone? To inflate the numbers? Keep the public in a state of fear? To justify lockdown?

Secondly, if you look at the annual deaths across the last 20 years, there aren’t thousands of excess deaths as you claim there to be. Weirdly, there is also an abnormal drop off in flu related deaths. There is a rise in COVID deaths that seems to correlate with a sharp decline in deaths from other causes. I’m happy to provide you with the data to support this. Like you say, it’s there for all to see.

Would I want to be put at risk by others? Honestly, I don’t care. I am a fit and healthy 29 year old man and I trust my immune system to protect me better than any vaccine will, against a virus that 99% of people survive from. I am more at risk when crossing the road but rest assured, I’ll still go to to sainsburys and get my sandwich. I have more chance of winning the lottery than dying of COVID so if you’re not vaccinated, I really don’t care. It’s your choice, in the same way it is mine.

No fit and healthy person should have to prove that they aren’t sick, in order to go about their normal lives. You lockdown, quarantine and vaccinate the sick and at risk. If you cannot see the problem with that then I’m afraid we will agree to disagree.
 
Last edited:

Scotchegg

Well-known member
Joined
14 Dec 2017
Messages
6,512
You talk of rushed vaccination, but the science was already there and only needed to be adapt to the strain of this virus. With the vast finances and clinical studies that came with this, several years of progress was very easily achieved in 6/9 months.

Right. You do not vaccinate people who aren't at risk from the disease, without rigorous and long term testing. It doesn’t matter how much money you throw at it, there has to be a testing framework in place. There is no long term data, because they haven’t conducted the proper testing. Do you know what effects it has on fertility, and a persons long term health? No, because it hasn’t gone through the correct testing procedures. You also don't set about planning to vaccinate millions of fit and healthy people with a vaccine that hasn't been extensively tested on animals, let alone human subjects for longer than a period of a few months.

Those deaths may have been discounted but don’t you think it’s a bit convenient that since that time, they have changed the terminology to “deaths within 28 days of a positive COVID test” - Why would they choose to word it like that, if so many people are dying from COVID alone?

Secondly, if you look at the annualdeaths across the last 20 years, there aren’t thousands of excess deaths as you claim there to be. Weirdly, there is also an abnormal drop off in flu related deaths. There is a rise in COVID deaths that seems to correlate with a sharp decline in deaths from other causes. I’m happy to provide you with the data to support this. Like you say, it’s there for all to see.

Would I want to be put at risk by others? Honestly, I don’t care. I am a fit and healthy 29 year old man and I trust my immune system to protect me better than any vaccine will, against a virus that 99% of people survive from. I am more at risk when crossing the road but rest assured, I’ll still go to to sainsburys and get my sandwich.

No fit and healthy person should have to prove that they aren’t sick, in order to go about their normal lives. You lockdown, quarantine and vaccinate the sick and at risk. If you cannot see the problem with that then I’m afraid we will agree to disagree.

Let's take that step by step. EVERYYONE is at risk from covid, that's why everyone needs to be vaccinated. Not everyone is at risk of serious illness but they can easily pass the virus on to others who are at risk. You may only be 29, but if you have family, work or socialise with those who are older or medically vulnerable then your infection could kill them.

The reason "deaths within 28 days of a positive test" was used as benchmark was because it prevented autopsies etc. Like many diseases and infections, having covid can lead to you dying from heart or lung failure that wouldn't have happened without if you didn't have covid. One things causes the other. So we know that 125,000 people died WITH covid in the last year. That's still huge and significantly outweighs year on year death figures.

There is absolutely nothing weird about flu related deaths being reduced either. Firstly, some of the most elderly and most vulnerable to flu were being killed by covid. Secondly, an airborne disease is significantly reduced through measures such as social distancing, masks being worn and hand sanitising etc. So protection people from covid also protected them from the flu and other communal diseases. That's exactly what happens!

And finally you can go about your normal life as you wish. But private businesses and venues can absolutely choose who they allow in to protect their business and others. You will not be allowed in to various places if you are drunk. That doesn't take away your rights, and no one stops you from drinking. But if you do then there are consequences to that. Want to go on holiday? Then have vaccines that are required by the receiving country. Do want to? Then unpack you bags and stay at home. Your choice.

If you don't want the covid vaccine, then that perfectly fine and whilst I hugely disagree I wouldn't try to convince you otherwise. But not doing so means that there will be consequences, and that is ultimately your problem and not mine.
 

chuckbert

Well-known member
Joined
8 Dec 2017
Messages
2,767
Why do I feel as though the population are being coerced into becoming vaccinated, if we are supposed to consent without influence?
because you are predisposed to subscribing to conspiracies?
It should be a choice. It is beginning to feel like as though the right to choose is being taken away from us..
You need a test and government documents in order to take a car on the road. Not just for your safety, but more so for the safety of others. That’s not coercion, it’s part of your social contract with society. Vaccination against contagious diseases is the same. No one forces you to take a driving test.
 

LeftSideBoy

Well-known member
Joined
24 Jul 2018
Messages
2,311
You need a test and government documents in order to take a car on the road. Not just for your safety, but more so for the safety of others. That’s not coercion, it’s part of your social contract with society. Vaccination against contagious diseases is the same. No one forces you to take a driving test.
Because the two things are remotely similar, aren’t they? Blimey.
 

Paul Cannell

Well-known member
Joined
7 Dec 2017
Messages
4,167
In any case, treating the 'CoVid Passport' as if its a simple binary issue is not helpful.

Is it a vaccination certificate? Is it a status indication based on tests? Is it a cumulative list of proof of supposedly CoVid-related stuff? Critically, is the data / requirement to be deleted by a certain milestone? What it is for - what can I access with a 'passport' and what can I access without it? Without knowing (I don't, I expect some of the cleverer posters do) the question is nonsense.

If it's a piece of paper, laminated or a booklet similar to the Yellow Fever card, and it's used for flying, trains, getting into events and venues such as football matches and pubs then I'll probably use it. I've carried a Yellow Fever card for 20 years but the value of that is incontrovertible - 60% of the people who get the disease die from it; very unlike CoVid.

If it's an app I expect I won't, it depends. 2 reasons: anything that gets loaded to my phone is a risk, from my information being given to people who I don't want to have it, the ability of the app provider to update the app without my knowledge to control the phone camera, microphone and using the app to intrude on / expropriate personal information.

That's my personal preference, I'm one of the least at-risk people in the country from an app: white male, 'economically inactive, never been a member of a political party etc etc. So I don't need to have a passport to earn. What about people who do?
 

Pete Burrett

Active member
Joined
6 Dec 2017
Messages
519
In any case, treating the 'CoVid Passport' as if its a simple binary issue is not helpful.

Is it a vaccination certificate? Is it a status indication based on tests? Is it a cumulative list of proof of supposedly CoVid-related stuff? Critically, is the data / requirement to be deleted by a certain milestone? What it is for - what can I access with a 'passport' and what can I access without it? Without knowing (I don't, I expect some of the cleverer posters do) the question is nonsense.

If it's a piece of paper, laminated or a booklet similar to the Yellow Fever card, and it's used for flying, trains, getting into events and venues such as football matches and pubs then I'll probably use it. I've carried a Yellow Fever card for 20 years but the value of that is incontrovertible - 60% of the people who get the disease die from it; very unlike CoVid.

If it's an app I expect I won't, it depends. 2 reasons: anything that gets loaded to my phone is a risk, from my information being given to people who I don't want to have it, the ability of the app provider to update the app without my knowledge to control the phone camera, microphone and using the app to intrude on / expropriate personal information.

That's my personal preference, I'm one of the least at-risk people in the country from an app: white male, 'economically inactive, never been a member of a political party etc etc. So I don't need to have a passport to earn. What about people who do?
Very good distinction PC, which I agree with. Paper card? Bring it on! App on my phone? I'll leave it a few months to see how quickly some shite works out how to abuse it.
 

carefreeoufc

Active member
Joined
7 Dec 2017
Messages
805
I think i'm more concerned about the long term effects of the vaccine itself and any unknown side effects later in life (33 yo fit/healthy male) than carrying a paper/card/app that confirms i've had the vaccine. As far as i'm aware there is discussion on the use of blockchain technology as one way to secure data more than say having it all backed up by Matt Hancock and his cronies.

I am also very aware that a lot of my data and information is already held electronically or on file. When working on larger construction sites my information is logged as part of a biometric access/egress system which is also linked with my right to work check, fit to work assessment, CSCS card and occasional D&A test results. Without that information I wouldn't be permitted to work on site. I'm sure there's many on this forum who provide similar information in order to work.

A lot will depend on who is awarded with the contract for developing the app, where the information is stored and who has access to it.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
Essexyellows Covid-19 4
HKYellow Covid-19 85
mooro Covid-19 31
Eaststandboy Covid-19 92
Essexyellows Covid-19 11

Similar threads


Top Bottom