International News Immigration

tonyw said:
I mean it in the reasonable person sense.
i.e. that if a reasonable, average person would review all the evidence, they would conclude that the individual was being persecuted.

EDIT: To add, having thought about it - in criminal law, you convict someone on the basis of evidence 'beyond reasonable doubt'. I believe there's no reason why you shouldn't apply the same standard of proof to aslyum cases as you would to criminal ones.

How do you define 'absolute'?
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It's interesting you mention that, as I also think 'beyond reasonable doubt' is nonsense and worded in such a way in which it can be easily manipulated by a prosecution. The phrase 'beyond reasonable doubt' itself throws up the question what classifies as a 'reasonable doubt'? If you're leaving that up to individuals then it's a very weak system which is entirely dependant on personal perception, feelings, mood etc. If there is an alternative explanation to something which is entirely possible and indeed could be the case (ie, you can't rule it out with fact), then that in itself is surely doubt.
 
MustardYellow said:
Situations like this have to, otherwise it isn't consistent.

We can all agree an asylum system should be consistent in the sense of what it accepts as evidence and what is approves. If its left up to 'reasonable'... well what's reasonable is different to everyone, dependant on mood etc.

Anything other than unequivocal proof should be rejected.
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What is 'unequivocal proof' - that's different for everyone. You cannot run anything in the real world on absolutes. There are always shades of grey.

As much as I agree with a robust and transparent system, preferably one which follows up and evaluates after the decision as well, I can't agree with your terminology.
 
tonyw said:
I mean it in the reasonable person sense.
i.e. that if a reasonable, average person would review all the evidence, they would conclude that the individual was being persecuted.

EDIT: To add, having thought about it - in criminal law, you convict someone on the basis of evidence 'beyond reasonable doubt'. I believe there's no reason why you shouldn't apply the same standard of proof to aslyum cases as you would to criminal ones.

How do you define 'absolute'?
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The beyond reasonable doubt that you are suggesting refers to someone being guilty and that poses the question as to what the guilty or the reasonable don’t refers to in immigration.

Is it that they’ve done nothing wrong or that they have done something wrong? Surely the reasonable doubt lies in the fact that we’d rather take a risk on a guilty ( illegal) person getting in than an innocent ( refugee) not.
 
Sheik djibouti said:
I don't remember this attack being given much airtime on here when it was reported in the press
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-beckton-snarebrook-crown-court-a8080161.html

Was this one talked about? I can't remember
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...don-corrosive-delivery-takeaway-a8148216.html

What about this one?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...e-mccann-boyfriend-london-towie-a8566456.html

Why weren't these individuals all detected and picked up earlier to prevent them from committing these heinous crimes?

The "system" has failed the victims and wider society in each and every one of these cases too. It's just they all happen to be UK citizens and didn't arrive here concealed in a lorry, so they're not as bad or "newsworthy" or as deserving of our disgust and contempt, presumably 🤷‍♂️
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Check the dates then........... probably before this thread started.
 
Sheik djibouti said:
That was the first link I posted, I think

Then there's this..... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-68135818. Absolutely appalling and particularly sadistic murder.

But not deemed suitable material for a spleen-vent from the usual suspects I guess. I can't think why :unsure:
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Nothing to do with immigration but, in my perfect world, those two wouldn`t be in jail.
Without doubt?
Premeditated?
Particularly sadistic. ?
Hate crime?

4/4

Toodle pip - long drop, short rope.
 
Essexyellows said:
Nothing to do with immigration but, in my perfect world, those two wouldn`t be in jail.
Without doubt?
Premeditated?
Particularly sadistic. ?
Hate crime?

4/4

Toodle pip - long drop, short rope.
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Do you want this dog owner to swing or do you want to wait to find out the colour of his skin first?

BBC News - Essex dog attack: Man arrested after woman dies in Jaywick
www.bbc.co.uk

Woman killed while trying to calm puppies - daughter

Esther Martin's daughter tells BBC the animals were banned XL bully dogs, but police are still establishing the breed.
www.bbc.co.uk
 
Sheik djibouti said:
Doesn't really matter what you think. Both evidence and history show that he's just not that popular. . . .for a populist :ROFLMAO:

Mainly because the majority of the population seem to think he's a nasty little bellend . . . and quite a lot of those seem to think he's a bit of a fascist too.

There's only one reason his Reform party may do relatively well at the next election a.. .and that's because the Tories are an utter train wreck. But I can almost guarantee that he either won't stand in the GE, or if he does, won't get anywhere close to being elected.

I mean he might actually have to do a days work if he were elected....and I'm not sure he's all that comfortable with serving anyone but himself either. Fair play to the man though, many might've decided to slither off by now, but he kind of seems to like the perpetual humiliation that he brought on himself to date - maybe he's also a sadomasochist :unsure:
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All you're highlighting is that you don't really know what a fascist is.

You're trying to make out I'm a Farage fanboy, which I'm not particularly, but to label him a fascist is dense and somewhat insulting to people who have lived under genuine fascists.
 
Wandering Yellow said:
All you're highlighting is that you don't really know what a fascist is.

You're trying to make out I'm a Farage fanboy, which I'm not particularly, but to label him a fascist is dense and somewhat insulting to people who have lived under genuine fascists.
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Like I said, it doesn't matter what you think. Thankfully, enough people think he's an odious sack of s**t, meaning he'll be relegated to the role of right wing rent a gob forever more👍

The BIG problem is he and his ilk will become the "acceptable face" of right leaning politics after the next election and the Tories pending implosion. So I'll expect a lot more negative, angry anti-immigration and "this country has gone to pot" type dog-whistling rhetoric from the usual right wingers/whingers, trying to whip up yet another false culture war.

Trump would be so, so proud.
 
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Sheik djibouti said:
Like I said, it doesn't matter what you think. Thankfully, enough people think he's an odious sack of s**t, meaning he'll be relegated to the role of right wing rent a gob forever more👍

The BIG problem is he and his ilk will become the "acceptable face" of right leaning politics after the next election and the Tories pending implosion. So I'll expect a lot more negative, angry anti-immigration and "this country has gone to pot" type dog-whistling rhetoric from the usual right wingers/whingers, trying to whip up yet another false culture war.

Trump would be so, so proud.
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The kind of hysteria in this post a "Trump supporting right-winger" would be proud of.

"Odious sack of sh*t" =/= "fascist". That is all I'm trying to tell you.
 
Wandering Yellow said:
The kind of hysteria in this post a "Trump supporting right-winger" would be proud of.

"Odious sack of sh*t" =/= "fascist". That is all I'm trying to tell you.
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You're right - he's not a fascist in the traditional 1930:s sense, because he doesn't have any power. And the great thing is he never will.

Because as you will know, the commonly accepted definition of fascism relies on said fascist being able to act as a dictator and suppress any dissenting voices...as well as having a strong nationalistic view of how things should be. A bit like our dear friend Vlad in Moscow. Now he really is a fascist, red in tooth and claw.

Now, dear old Nige's more right wing mates in the Tory Party who did have a bit of power, did indeed try to start us down the road of suppressing opposition and dissenting voices through their efforts to introduce legislation to curb protests - (goose) step forward Priti Patel and her gang. Thankfully, they failed.

But these people are the future of the right of politics in the UK and (as I've already said) I think we'll see their toxic rhetoric intensify.
 
Sheik djibouti said:
You're right - he's not a fascist in the traditional 1930:s sense, because he doesn't have any power. And the great thing is he never will.

Because as you will know, the commonly accepted definition of fascism relies on said fascist being able to act as a dictator and suppress any dissenting voices...as well as having a strong nationalistic view of how things should be. A bit like our dear friend Vlad in Moscow. Now he really is a fascist, red in tooth and claw.

Now, dear old Nige's more right wing mates in the Tory Party who did have a bit of power, did indeed try to start us down the road of suppressing opposition and dissenting voices through their efforts to introduce legislation to curb protests - (goose) step forward Priti Patel and her gang. Thankfully, they failed.

But these people are the future of the right of politics in the UK and (as I've already said) I think we'll see their toxic rhetoric intensify.
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This

People think of hitler swastikas and goose stepping when we talk about fascism

What fascist that actually wants power would be dumb enough to align themselves with the Nazis?

Look at the Italian French and Dutch fascists. They have all made themselves out to be respectable but patriotic party’s.

If people think old nige is any different from the lePenns of this world then they are sadly mistaken
 
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QR said:
Do you want this dog owner to swing or do you want to wait to find out the colour of his skin first?

BBC News - Essex dog attack: Man arrested after woman dies in Jaywick
www.bbc.co.uk

Woman killed while trying to calm puppies - daughter

Esther Martin's daughter tells BBC the animals were banned XL bully dogs, but police are still establishing the breed.
www.bbc.co.uk
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Nope - the dogs done the killing not the person and they are already dead.

Jaywick as whole needs taking out with a tactical strike. :)
 
Mojofilter said:
Genuinely scummy thing to say. My skin crawls, even though it is clearly just adolescent trolling
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In what way?

They, without any doubt, committed a premeditated, preplanned, sadistic murder.

They go to prison for a period of time, we hope they are "rehabilitated" then they get released on licence while we hope they don`t do it again.

What is the point in that?
 
Essexyellows said:
In what way?

They, without any doubt, committed a premeditated, preplanned, sadistic murder.

They go to prison for a period of time, we hope they are "rehabilitated" then they get released on licence while we hope they don`t do it again.

What is the point in that?
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Never has there ever been a miscarriage of justice. Never has someone been found guilty of a crime that they didn’t commit……

When you give the state the right to murder someone, you need to be darned sure that a) they never get it wrong and b) that they can never abuse that power.

Personally I haven’t trusted a single government in my lifetime to hit 1 let alone both of those points.
 
Marston Road yellow said:
Never has there ever been a miscarriage of justice. Never has someone been found guilty of a crime that they didn’t commit……

When you give the state the right to murder someone, you need to be darned sure that a) they never get it wrong and b) that they can never abuse that power.

Personally I haven’t trusted a single government in my lifetime to hit 1 let alone both of those points.
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In the cases referenced recently there is absolutely no doubt who "did it". And that is one of the criteria - zero doubt.
 
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