International News Immigration

[Sheik djibouti]

Everything I've highlighted in bold are things you could quite easily lie about. If you arrive with no documents there is almost no way to determine someone's true name, and no way to determine their true age without doing invasive tests. No way to determine who their family are of where they come from, sexuality etc.

Again, you've missed the point - it is quite literally impossible for the border force to corroborate anything these people say if they have no documents. The idea the system is rigorous is nonsense.

Same applies for anyone answering any question on anything ever.

Unless you can properly confirm the veracity of what they say and follow it up.

What degree do you want to take this to?

It wouldn't have taken that much effort to prevent someone like Sir Mo Farah ever coming here, would it?

So you are accepting that the system is inherently flawed and there's not much you can do about it. And the white elephant of removals to Rwanda is not going to do anything to deter people from coming here. Plus it will cost us a shitload of money into the bargain...and all the time, we are actually processing claims for asylum from Rwandans seeking to settle here to flee persecution in a country that BY LAW the government wants us to declare as safe.

Utter nonsense from a government in its death throes.

 

[MustardYellow]

Same applies for anyone answering any question on anything ever.

Unless you can properly confirm the veracity of what they say and follow it up.

What degree do you want to take this to?

It wouldn't have taken that much effort to prevent someone like Sir Mo Farah ever coming here, would it?

So you are accepting that the system is inherently flawed and there's not much you can do about it. And the white elephant of removals to Rwanda is not going to do anything to deter people from coming here. Plus it will cost us a shitload of money into the bargain...and all the time, we are actually processing claims for asylum from Rwandans seeking to settle here to flee persecution in a country that BY LAW the government wants us to declare as safe.

Utter nonsense from a government in its death throes.

The system is certainly flawed. It's ultimately based on a series of criteria that often can't be verified. That's neither rigorous or safe.

The only solution to that particular problem is to reject any asylum claim made by those without documents. If a claim or part of a claim can't be verified, it should be rejected - the alternative to that is to just believe everything they say. Unfortunately in this system there is no in between.

No doubt there will be some international law against this though.

 

[Marston Road yellow]

The system is certainly flawed. It's ultimately based on a series of criteria that often can't be verified. That's neither rigorous or safe.

The only solution to that particular problem is to reject any asylum claim made by those without documents. If a claim or part of a claim can't be verified, it should be rejected - the alternative to that is to just believe everything they say. Unfortunately in this system there is no in between.

No doubt there will be some international law against this though.

If someone is lying about who they are what age they are etc do you think that cannot be found out if you look hard enough. Apart from a very few enclaves there is nowhere left that you don’t leave some sort of digital footprint.

To suggest that someone can turn up, call themself Fred and say they’re from Afghanistan and that they’ve been persecuted because they are gay and that will be taken at face value is lunacy.

 

[holdsteady]

If someone is lying about who they are what age they are etc do you think that cannot be found out if you look hard enough. Apart from a very few enclaves there is nowhere left that you don’t leave some sort of digital footprint.

To suggest that someone can turn up, call themself Fred and say they’re from Afghanistan and that they’ve been persecuted because they are gay and that will be taken at face value is lunacy.

Its happened, been cases of adults going to school in this country who have turned out to be 18 or above, so thats plainly not true.

 

[SteMerritt]

Its happened, been cases of adults going to school in this country who have turned out to be 18 or above, so thats plainly not true.

I'd not heard of this so did a quick search...

Asylum seeker who claimed to be 15 and joined school is an adult

He spent six weeks as a Year 11 student in Ipswich, with fellow pupils asking: "How's there a 30-year-old man in my maths class?"

news.sky.com

...which leads to the question of if a group of school pupils can uncover proof the fella was not the age he was claiming via a simple Facebook search how come the local authorities didn't notice until complaints were received, and the Border Force couldn't find the same information? I think there is a career path open to some of these kids...

 

[Sheik djibouti]

I'd not heard of this so did a quick search...

Asylum seeker who claimed to be 15 and joined school is an adult

He spent six weeks as a Year 11 student in Ipswich, with fellow pupils asking: "How's there a 30-year-old man in my maths class?"

news.sky.com

...which leads to the question of if a group of school pupils can uncover proof the fella was not the age he was claiming via a simple Facebook search how come the local authorities didn't notice until complaints were received, and the Border Force couldn't find the same information? I think there is a career path open to some of these kids...

Where there's a will, there's a way.

So the ones apparently jumping up and down and whining about it being "too hard" are actually #checks notes# the Government!

Who knew

 

[Essexyellows]

Where there's a will, there's a way.

So the ones apparently jumping up and down and whining about it being "too hard" are actually #checks notes# the Government!

Who knew

We agree there is a proper legal process for people to enter the UK.

We agree that the process should be rigorous, properly funded, efficient and properly staffed.

We agree that using the same people to "trawl through FB" to establish someone's true identity/age is an inefficient use of resources.

Very simple fix then - no documents or not following the proper process = no admission.

Glad we agree.

 

[MustardYellow]

If someone is lying about who they are what age they are etc do you think that cannot be found out if you look hard enough. Apart from a very few enclaves there is nowhere left that you don’t leave some sort of digital footprint.

To suggest that someone can turn up, call themself Fred and say they’re from Afghanistan and that they’ve been persecuted because they are gay and that will be taken at face value is lunacy.

What digital footprint are you referring to? If someone has given you a fake name and age, where do you even start?

A few people on this thread seem to be acknowledging there is little to no way of verifying various claims, yet are simultaneously suggesting decisions are being made only after verifying claims... the same claims we've just established can't be verified...???

 

[MustardYellow]

I'd not heard of this so did a quick search...

Asylum seeker who claimed to be 15 and joined school is an adult

He spent six weeks as a Year 11 student in Ipswich, with fellow pupils asking: "How's there a 30-year-old man in my maths class?"

news.sky.com

...which leads to the question of if a group of school pupils can uncover proof the fella was not the age he was claiming via a simple Facebook search how come the local authorities didn't notice until complaints were received, and the Border Force couldn't find the same information? I think there is a career path open to some of these kids...

Two out of three people seeking refuge in UK claimed to be under 18

The number of asylum seekers pretending to be children has reached a high as more than 1,100 migrants who claimed to be under 18 were found to be adults in the 12 months to September.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[SteMerritt]

Two out of three people seeking refuge in UK claimed to be under 18

The number of asylum seekers pretending to be children has reached a high as more than 1,100 migrants who claimed to be under 18 were found to be adults in the 12 months to September.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I don't take anything published in the Daily Mail as reliable.

 

[MustardYellow]

I don't take anything published in the Daily Mail as reliable.

More than 2,000 asylum seekers have lied about being children

More than half of the 'children' investigated were found to actually be adults.

metro.co.uk

Over 2,000 adult asylum seekers caught lying about age & pretending to be kids

MORE than 2,000 adult asylum seekers have been caught pretending to be children. Immigration officers have investigated 3,929 people in the past five years who claimed asylum and said they were und…

www.thesun.co.uk

https://news.stv.tv/politics/home-office-looking-at-methods-to-determine-age-of-asylum-seekers

“The practice of single grown adult men, masquerading as children, claiming asylum is an appalling abuse of our system which we will end.

“By posing as children, these adult men go on to access children’s services and schools through deception and deceit – putting children and young adults in school and care at risk.

“It is a fact that two thirds of age dispute cases have found that the individual claiming to be a child is actually over the age of 18.”

 

[Sheik djibouti]

More than 2,000 asylum seekers have lied about being children

More than half of the 'children' investigated were found to actually be adults.

metro.co.uk

Over 2,000 adult asylum seekers caught lying about age & pretending to be kids

MORE than 2,000 adult asylum seekers have been caught pretending to be children. Immigration officers have investigated 3,929 people in the past five years who claimed asylum and said they were und…

www.thesun.co.uk

https://news.stv.tv/politics/home-office-looking-at-methods-to-determine-age-of-asylum-seekers

“The practice of single grown adult men, masquerading as children, claiming asylum is an appalling abuse of our system which we will end.

“By posing as children, these adult men go on to access children’s services and schools through deception and deceit – putting children and young adults in school and care at risk.

“It is a fact that two thirds of age dispute cases have found that the individual claiming to be a child is actually over the age of 18.”

So they've identified a problem and are looking for a solution to the 2000 (total) who have claimed to be children from the 45000 per year arriving "illegally" and the x000 PER YEAR claiming asylum legally.

Not really a massive deal is it. And they are looking for a solution, we're golden.

 

[holdsteady]

So they've identified a problem and are looking for a solution to the 2000 (total) who have claimed to be children from the 45000 per year arriving "illegally" and the x000 PER YEAR claiming asylum legally.

Not really a massive deal is it. And they are looking for a solution, we're golden.

That's very glib about 2000 overaged men who should be nowhere near them trying to gain access to our schools, I would say as a parent of a 15 year old girl that it is a massive deal to me, I am sure most other parents would agree.

 

[bashamwonderland]

So they've identified a problem and are looking for a solution to the 2000 (total) who have claimed to be children from the 45000 per year arriving "illegally" and the x000 PER YEAR claiming asylum legally.

Not really a massive deal is it. And they are looking for a solution, we're golden.

Haha 2,000 children compared to 43,000 adults.

The people who are actually vulnerable are being left behind in the danger zone, it would seem.

Fingers crossed for a stormy spring

 

[Wandering Yellow]

Haha 2,000 children compared to 43,000 adults.

The people who are actually vulnerable are being left behind in the danger zone, it would seem.

Fingers crossed for a stormy spring

I don't think even your most ardent remainer-green type would think every refugee was genuine, surely.

They're safe in France. Why is it always our problem to sort out? The French should protect their borders and not just pass the problem on to us. We get accused of showing a lack of humanity when they have something called "The Jungle" in their own country.

 

[MustardYellow]

So they've identified a problem and are looking for a solution to the 2000 (total) who have claimed to be children from the 45000 per year arriving "illegally" and the x000 PER YEAR claiming asylum legally.

Not really a massive deal is it. And they are looking for a solution, we're golden.

If they're lying about their age, what else are they lying about?

I fail to understand how anyone can't see this as a huge issue.

 

[WuTang]

Surprised we're still having this conversation on criteria when Ali solved it back in 2002

 

[Sheik djibouti]

That's very glib about 2000 overaged men who should be nowhere near them trying to gain access to our schools, I would say as a parent of a 15 year old girl that it is a massive deal to me, I am sure most other parents would agree.

I absolutely agree that 2000 people claiming to be something they're not, should not be getting in. It is 2000 too many as you rightly point out and there are a whole load of safeguarding concerns to address. The issue is with how you detect this and whether the government is really that bothered about doing something about it.

And come now, my response was no more glib than yours about installing some kind of gaydar at the border for blokes with wives and kids claiming to be gay.

 

[tonyw]

Are we even disagreeing any more?

If someone turns up at a UK port of entry requesting asylum because they are being persecuted in their home country, then you have to investigate that claim. That's both moral decency and international law.

If they have no documentation, then you can't just let them in on trust - that is lunacy, and simply asking for the system to be abused.

What you instead have to do is verify those claims - which means getting all their personal details, getting them to provide references, and then having someone either in the UK remotely or at the embassy of their country of origin in person doing some legwork to track down their records and conduct some interviews.
(I'm an immigrant myself - albeit to the US, not the UK - by the time I got my green card and then my citizenship, the US government had a binder on me so large that you could use it to beat whales to death......)

If you confirm their identity, and uncover some evidence that there is indeed a reasonable chance that they have been subject to persecution, then you grant them asylum.
If you discover that they are lying about their identity, or you cannot confirm anything about their story, then you don't.


But - that is a system that requires competent, well-trained people to be working in it; and therefore requires significant investment. All signs suggest that the UK government has completely failed to run it properly, and has instead decided it's a better use of resources to set up a barmy, astonishingly expensive scheme to just put a bunch of people on a plane to Rwanda. Because this government seems to be inept and incapable of actually running anything.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

Are we even disagreeing any more?

If someone turns up at a UK port of entry requesting asylum because they are being persecuted in their home country, then you have to investigate that claim. That's both moral decency and international law.

If they have no documentation, then you can't just let them in on trust - that is lunacy, and simply asking for the system to be abused.

What you instead have to do is verify those claims - which means getting all their personal details, getting them to provide references, and then having someone either in the UK remotely or at the embassy of their country of origin in person doing some legwork to track down their records and conduct some interviews.
(I'm an immigrant myself - albeit to the US, not the UK - by the time I got my green card and then my citizenship, the US government had a binder on me so large that you could use it to beat whales to death......)

If you confirm their identity, and uncover some evidence that there is indeed a reasonable chance that they have been subject to persecution, then you grant them asylum.
If you discover that they are lying about their identity, or you cannot confirm anything about their story, then you don't.


But - that is a system that requires competent, well-trained people to be working in it; and therefore requires significant investment. All signs suggest that the UK government has completely failed to run it properly, and has instead decided it's a better use of resources to set up a barmy, astonishingly expensive scheme to just put a bunch of people on a plane to Rwanda. Because this government seems to be inept and incapable of actually running anything.

This

With the addition of, you can't just kick them out on mistrust because they have no documentation - that would equally be lunacy.