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[bazzer9461]

Hi bazzer - I heard interview this morning and you are correct he did say ‘and only’ though I think he did correct himself immediately afterwards repeating third of black players and dropping the “and only” that’s how I interpreted it, since would be strange to say only in that context. Though don’t think that should take away from the point he was making. Why are there a lack of black people in management, authority and boards - to which there is not an obvious answer and can only conclude that unconscious bias/racism is a significant factor.

I have to ask as I did say who’s fault wasnthat, that there were not enough BAME, does this make football clubs and in this case premiership clubs racist? But he did say“ and only “ and that’s the crux whether he meant it in that way or not. He’s a great player but I feel he’s not a great role model.

 

[MC Yellow]

Yes they are but Raheems comments are out of order

That’s my point Baz... It’s not a question of racism but more a question of the available talent pool. Unless of course we are to start a protest that American football discriminates against white people?

 

[Sheik djibouti]

Maybe you should read a bit of Sterling's story to find out where he came from, what he went through and how he got to where he did? You may not like him as a person but what you cannot deny is that he has maximised his talents and against the backdrop of a very hard early life and he's had to endure plenty of this along the way too:

 

[QR]

 

[Sheik djibouti]

I have to ask as I did say who’s fault wasnthat, that there were not enough BAME, does this make football clubs and in this case premiership clubs racist? But he did say“ and only “ and that’s the crux whether he meant it in that way or not. He’s a great player but I feel he’s not a great role model.

And on the wider question, why is it that the BAME community is under-represented in many many professions and institutions?

 

[Essexyellows]

Is it a rewrite of history that is needed or a correction of history?

You can not rewrite the past.
You can not directly correct it.

You CAN learn from it and progress as a society.
I cast my mind back 30 years or so and certain words to describe people of colour were common place, as was blatant, unadulterated racism.
Things have moved on especially in the UK.

Even the statue incident can be used to learn.
Retrieve it, put it in a Museum and tell the story of how he made his money, why the statue divided many, how it ended.

Great to see the Johnson backers are also supporters of commemorating the slave owners and traders.

It has happened, it can not be changed. Do you forget the people involved? Accept the deaths of thousands as collateral damage? Or do you learn that everyone should have the opportunity to progress irrespective of background, colour, gender etc?

Leave Twitter alone, educate yourself rather than looking in the mirror thinking you are perfect.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

You can not rewrite the past.
You can not directly correct it.

You CAN learn from it and progress as a society.
I cast my mind back 30 years or so and certain words to describe people of colour were common place, as was blatant, unadulterated racism.
Things have moved on especially in the UK.

Even the statue incident can be used to learn.
Retrieve it, put it in a Museum and tell the story of how he made his money, why the statue divided many, how it ended.



It has happened, it can not be changed. Do you forget the people involved? Accept the deaths of thousands as collateral damage? Or do you learn that everyone should have the opportunity to progress irrespective of background, colour, gender etc?

Leave Twitter alone, educate yourself rather than looking in the mirror thinking you are perfect.

I agree you can't re-write it, but it is how you choose to record it that is important. The statue to celebrate and commemorate Colstons life and achievements has as little a place in modern society as the language used to describe members of the BAME community a few short decades ago. It is offensive and out of date and not how we should record that rather shameful episode of our history.

The fact that everyone was at it is no defence at all.

We must learn and change as a result of our history.....who was it who said those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them?

And I'm not a fan of Twitter either (not because it does not have some good stuff, but it is outweighed by utter vacuosity, hate and outright lunacy), but like it or loathe it, it is here to stay....so get with the times Grandad

 

[Marked Ox]

Is it a rewrite of history that is needed or a correction of history?

Or an acknowledgement of what actually happened, warts and all (good and bad) from all sides of the coin, it isn't a correction or a rewrite. So that would include the Palaces, Stately homes, growing middle classes, education etc through to child workers in the UK (who often died young in many industries), adults exploited (navvies building the railways, miners etc) as well, harsh laws/transportation, etc etc and then on to slavery.

 

[SteMerritt]

Seriously. Removing controversial statues isn't denying or whitewashing history, especially in the case of slave trading. Remove the statue and locate it in a museum, then have a display which outlines the person's story. There are places that iare more apt for them rather than standing in town centres.

 

[Marked Ox]

Hi bazzer - I heard interview this morning and you are correct he did say ‘and only’ though I think he did correct himself immediately afterwards repeating third of black players and dropping the “and only” that’s how I interpreted it, since would be strange to say only in that context. Though don’t think that should take away from the point he was making. Why are there a lack of black people in management, authority and boards - to which there is not an obvious answer and can only conclude that unconscious bias/racism is a significant factor.

The other point that is missed or only a footnote in the BAME discussion is the lack of Asians in football as players, management/coaching etc. Football hasn't done enough here at all by a long way. At least the black community in football now have a core of players that can try to push into management/coaching etc but is there even 10 British Asian players in UK football, nevermind English football?

 

[Essexyellows]

"History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right. I know, of course, that the past is falsified, but it would never be possible for me to prove it, even when I did the falsification myself. After the thing is done, no evidence ever remains. The only evidence is inside my own mind, and I don’t know with any certainty that any other human being shares my memories. Just in that one instance, in my whole life, I did possess actual concrete evidence after the event—years after it."

You all know the book....................be careful what you wish for, the past is as important as the future.

 

[Aylesbury Rich]

"History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right. I know, of course, that the past is falsified, but it would never be possible for me to prove it, even when I did the falsification myself. After the thing is done, no evidence ever remains. The only evidence is inside my own mind, and I don’t know with any certainty that any other human being shares my memories. Just in that one instance, in my whole life, I did possess actual concrete evidence after the event—years after it."

You all know the book....................be careful what you wish for, the past is as important as the future.

Is it Harry Potter?

 

[chuckbert]

That's kind of the point. If racism, or tolerance is systemic then it doesn't need to be the fault of one white person or another, but an invisible barrier that prevents black people succeeding. It is seeing a black athlete but not a manager, or a black rapper but not in positions at major record companies. It is about not trusting black people with power or allowing them to be in charge of white people. That is where the systemic racism is perhaps more evident.

@Scotchegg you're doing an excellent job of explaining some really complex issues in this thread. I wish I could do it as clearly.

 

[chuckbert]

If "history is written by the winners" why can't it be rewritten? It is ridiculously naive to think that someone's account of what happened is objective truth.

 

[MC Yellow]

Maybe you should read a bit of Sterling's story to find out where he came from, what he went through and how he got to where he did? You may not like him as a person but what you cannot deny is that he has maximised his talents and against the backdrop of a very hard early life and he's had to endure plenty of this along the way too:
View attachment 3844

Not sure where I have indicated a dislike of Sterling? I have no problem with him and have total respect for what he has achieved.

My point was that we seem to point the racism card at every opportunity when I do not agree that is always the case. We then get to a situation that everyone is deemed racist because someone of colour has missed out on an opportunity and the default is to blame the colour of their skin.

Sterling is an excellent example of someone who nurtured a talent and fought his way to where he is today against a very difficult backdrop.

But I wonder how many other people could have achieved similar success if they were more inclined to work at it rather than blame the system...

There are plenty of achievers and doers out there who work and study hard and there are also plenty who just want someone or something to blame, or expect the world to owe them a living (black or white, it doesn’t matter).

 

[bazzer9461]

And on the wider question, why is it that the BAME community is under-represented in many many professions and institutions?

You tell me

 

[ZeroTheHero]

"History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right. I know, of course, that the past is falsified, but it would never be possible for me to prove it, even when I did the falsification myself. After the thing is done, no evidence ever remains. The only evidence is inside my own mind, and I don’t know with any certainty that any other human being shares my memories. Just in that one instance, in my whole life, I did possess actual concrete evidence after the event—years after it."

You all know the book....................be careful what you wish for, the past is as important as the future.

Not quite sure what your point is here.

Nobody is saying that what happened in the past should be airbrushed out. Actually the opposite in this case - people are saying that the realities of slavery must be *remembered* and that what was done are *not* whitewashed out.

Of course, what we think about slavery now *is* different from how it was seen at the time by some people (see also women's rights, feudalism, voting rights, state executions, ducking witches, etc etc), which is what I *think* your point is. That does not mean that because people who did such things did them in the past, they should be celebrated by having public monuments to them.

SteMerritt is right - move such artifacts to a museum, where the context can be explained and the plusses and minusses of such a person's life can be examined properly.

 

[Essexyellows]

Not quite sure what your point is here.

Nobody is saying that what happened in the past should be airbrushed out. Actually the opposite in this case - people are saying that the realities of slavery must be *remembered* and that what was done are *not* whitewashed out.

Of course, what we think about slavery now *is* different from how it was seen at the time by some people (see also women's rights, feudalism, voting rights, state executions, ducking witches, etc etc), which is what I *think* your point is. That does not mean that because people who did such things did them in the past, they should be celebrated by having public monuments to them.

SteMerritt is right - move such artifacts to a museum, where the context can be explained and the plusses and minusses of such a person's life can be examined properly.

I`m sure I also suggested Museums........
Is having a public monument a celebration or a display of history, as you would get in a museum?
Walk around London...... keep the Cenotaph? Keep the Leaders, Generals, Boudecia? Where do you "stop" ?
They are, like it or not, part of our history. Once you start removing parts of it.................................

 

[Sheik djibouti]

Not sure where I have indicated a dislike of Sterling? I have no problem with him and have total respect for what he has achieved.

My point was that we seem to point the racism card at every opportunity when I do not agree that is always the case. We then get to a situation that everyone is deemed racist because someone of colour has missed out on an opportunity and the default is to blame the colour of their skin.

Sterling is an excellent example of someone who nurtured a talent and fought his way to where he is today against a very difficult backdrop.

But I wonder how many other people could have achieved similar success if they were more inclined to work at it rather than blame the system...

There are plenty of achievers and doers out there who work and study hard and there are also plenty who just want someone or something to blame, or expect the world to owe them a living (black or white, it doesn’t matter).

Sorry MC - I wasn't referring to you, but Bazza HAS indicated a clear dislike.

I agree that some of it comes down to attitude and there is a very telling quote from Sterling's former head that basically says he was never going to settle for a normal regular life - he was either going to the top or would crash and burn along the way. So he recognised there was a single-minded determination in Sterling and a self belief to realise his dream...and he happened to have the talents and opportunities to make it happen.

So there is a point about matching talent with determination and belief and ensuring that the environment in which people exist allows all 3 to be nurtured equally. Can we honestly say that as a society we currently do that? And if not, what do we need to do to make that a reality?

 

[ZeroTheHero]

I`m sure I also suggested Museums........
Is having a public monument a celebration or a display of history, as you would get in a museum?
Walk around London...... keep the Cenotaph? Keep the Leaders, Generals, Boudecia? Where do you "stop" ?
They are, like it or not, part of our history. Once you start removing parts of it.................................

A public monument is more than just a neutral display of history, as a museum might be. It implies some sort of approval of the person shown.

That approval may be 'warts and all' in some cases. And in a way you are right - in the era of Empire, when people had very different attitudes towards people of a different colour or from 'somewhere else', this bloke's philanthropy at home *would* have outweighed what he did 'elsewhere'.

But then isn't now. I don't think it is airbrushing out sections of history at all to decide that what was once worthy of public display for people to admire is now more suited to a more thoughtful and nuanced view. Moved - not removed. Or being chucked in the docks.