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[bazzer9461]

It made me chuckle!!

Yes, totally agree. Churchill is probably the best example of this. He rose to the occasion in May 1940 but actually his wartime leadership was pretty mixed (at best), Gallipoli was a disaster and his tenure as Home Secretary was most controversial.

Greatest Briton? No. But he did a great thing in the spring and summer of 1940 in mobilising the country to resist the Nazis (and prevent capitulation).

when General de Gaulle came to Britain by train rather than come direct to Long Hanborough, Churchill had his train go to Waterloo the same name as the place where Great Britain defeated the the French and in a parapet at Blenheim palace there are lions the symbol of Great Britain facing down the a cockerell a symbol of the French......Churchill certainly didn’t like the French

 

[bazzer9461]

Why did the f*****g idiots in London try to burn our flag lock the C***s up

 

[Essexyellows]

So what happens next?
The protesters have been heard loud and clear but before their voices fade away and little if anything happens to address inequality, now is the time for someone or some body of people to set about making change actually happen.
Who has the will to do it? Who should do it? The Govt. via a royal commission? That would buy some much needed political capital for Boris but do they have the will to do it, or is change best led by people who really have the desire, will and gravitas to make change happen?
It‘s one hell of a challenge.
Whoever, or whatever it is, we need to hear and see that change start to happen soon or we’ll be back here again before we know it..

One question ....................What do they want?

This country has laws against discrimination.
Public sector bodies train their staff around unconscious bias etc etc.
Education is equal for all.
Opportunity is available to anyone who looks for it.

Just because you are born in a council house in East London doesn`t mean you can not achieve as long as you choose the right path.
Choices and actions have consequences and outcomes.

 

[Aylesbury Rich]

when General de Gaulle came to Britain by train rather than come direct to Long Hanborough, Churchill had his train go to Waterloo the same name as the place where Great Britain defeated the the French and in a parapet at Blenheim palace there are lions the symbol of Great Britain facing down the a cockerell a symbol of the French......Churchill certainly didn’t like the French

I think it was more the case that Churchill hated de Gaulle...

He was very much a francophile, you may remember that in 1940 he proposed a union between Britain and France that would result in the counties becoming a single entity, with a joint government. British citizens would be granted citizenship of France and French citizens would become British.

He was of course, very much pro European integration as well. Calling for a United States of Europe.

I also rather suspect that the Blenheim Palace symbols have more to do with the first Duke of Marlborough and his victories during the War of the Spanish Succession with which you are no doubt familiar.

 

[bazzer9461]

I think it was more the case that Churchill hated de Gaulle...

He was very much a francophile, you may remember that in 1940 he proposed a union between Britain and France that would result in the counties becoming a single entity, with a joint government. British citizens would be granted citizenship of France and French citizens would become British.

He was of course, very much pro European integration as well. Calling for a United States of Europe.

I also rather suspect that the Blenheim Palace symbols have more to do with the first Duke of Marlborough and his victories during the War of the Spanish Succession with which you are no doubt familiar.

Oh yes he hated the French

 

[bazzer9461]

I think it was more the case that Churchill hated de Gaulle...

He was very much a francophile, you may remember that in 1940 he proposed a union between Britain and France that would result in the counties becoming a single entity, with a joint government. British citizens would be granted citizenship of France and French citizens would become British.

He was of course, very much pro European integration as well. Calling for a United States of Europe.

I also rather suspect that the Blenheim Palace symbols have more to do with the first Duke of Marlborough and his victories during the War of the Spanish Succession with which you are no doubt familiar.

I got this information when I had a tour at Blenheim I knew he hated De-Gaulle but didn’t know about the train into Waterloo idle the lions looking at the Cockerel. The tour was quite informative.

 

[Aylesbury Rich]

I got this information when I had a tour at Blenheim I knew he hated De-Gaulle but didn’t know about the train into Waterloo idle the lions looking at the Cockerel. The tour was quite informative.

To be fair, almost everyone hated de Gaulle!

 

[Eaststanding]

One question ....................What do they want?

This country has laws against discrimination.
Public sector bodies train their staff around unconscious bias etc etc.
Education is equal for all.
Opportunity is available to anyone who looks for it.

Just because you are born in a council house in East London doesn`t mean you can not achieve as long as you choose the right path.
Choices and actions have consequences and outcomes.

But surely there needs to be an aim and / or intended outcome of the protesters actions, but unless I’m wrong, I haven’t seen any person or organisation saying ‘right, enough, we‘ve listened and now we are going to make change happen by doing......’
That‘s all I’m asking, that the protests were actually aimed at achieve an outcome, rather than just a mass show of support for BAME followed by outpourings of anger and violence that actually achieved nothing in the long run.

 

[MC Yellow]

Come on @MC Yellow he , Churchill, advised the army drafted in to deal with striking miners to shoot to kill between world wars..... colstons funding of much of Bristol does not buy him immunity from his slave trading

Churchill was unquestionably 'our' succesful wartime coalition pm, does that excuse his actions perpetuated against British working class people (striking miners)between world wars ? ..... there's skeletons in every closet it seems

The Daily Mail supported facism and Hitler pre Ww2 as did a number of the ruling classes ...including EdwardVIII

Absolutely... lots of skeletons.

Which is sort of my point... yet again focus is all on the bad stuff and ignore the good stuff. If we have this mentality of taking down every statue, heritage building or anything in this world for that matter, that was in some way connected to terrible people or dirty money, there wouldn’t be much left.

It seems we all have to be absolutely whiter than white (no offence meant) otherwise were doomed.

 

[chuckbert]

Absolutely... lots of skeletons.

Which is sort of my point... yet again focus is all on the bad stuff and ignore the good stuff. If we have this mentality of taking down every statue, heritage building or anything in this world for that matter, that was in some way connected to terrible people or dirty money, there wouldn’t be much left.

It seems we all have to be absolutely whiter than white (no offence meant) otherwise were doomed.

You don't take everything down, but you do have to distinguish between celebratory memorials, heritage items, and teachable history. Auschwitz (& Schindler's factory etc) have avoided being levelled because they can be used as important memorials, but with not a jot of celebration for what happened there.

The question is how do you maintain a statue of Bomber Harris, Churchill, Rhodes or Cromwell, in a manner that allows the good and the bad to be fully acknowledged, and for people who's cultures were undoubtedly oppressed to not feel like the oppression is continuing.

 

[chuckbert]

Here's an article about all the same issues from about 5 years ago.

When is it right to remove a statue?

Activists are campaigning for a statue of Cecil Rhodes to be removed from an Oxford college. It's part of a wider movement.

www.bbc.com

 

[MC Yellow]

You don't take everything down, but you do have to distinguish between celebratory memorials, heritage items, and teachable history. Auschwitz (& Schindler's factory etc) have avoided being levelled because they can be used as important memorials, but with not a jot of celebration for what happened there.

The question is how do you maintain a statue of Bomber Harris, Churchill, Rhodes or Cromwell, in a manner that allows the good and the bad to be fully acknowledged, and for people who's cultures were undoubtedly oppressed to not feel like the oppression is continuing.

This is probably where I got so angry this morning when I saw the scene of someone climbing over the Cenotaph trying to set a flag on fire..... What an utter disgraceful scene and how disrespectful to those who have fallen.

How is that in anyway justifiable?

 

[ZeroTheHero]

Re the Bristol statue etc.

Personally I think there is quite a difference between having a chequered history (which of us hasn't!) and people like Colston. His fortune was (from what I have read) largely based on the slave trade - the Royal African Company transported 84,000 people from Africa to the Caribbean and 19,000 of them died on route. The money he so generously bought respectability with was earned that way. I don't think that toppling his statue is trying to rewrite history - I think it is looking history in the eye and saying that (no matter how he spent the proceeds) what he did was wrong, and having a statue celebrating him in a modern multi-ethnic, multi-cultural country is simply wrong as well.

So - is pulling the statue down justified? In my eyes, it is. It sounds as if there have been multiple attempts to get it removed which have been thwarted by people who are keen to excuse the sins of the past - uncaring that a statue celebrating him must be a constant reminder to some sections of society of wrongs past and present, both elsewhere and in this country.

 

[PottersRightBoot]

Re the Bristol statue etc.

Personally I think there is quite a difference between having a chequered history (which of us hasn't!) and people like Colston. His fortune was (from what I have read) largely based on the slave trade - the Royal African Company transported 84,000 people from Africa to the Caribbean and 19,000 of them died on route. The money he so generously bought respectability with was earned that way. I don't think that toppling his statue is trying to rewrite history - I think it is looking history in the eye and saying that (no matter how he spent the proceeds) what he did was wrong, and having a statue celebrating him in a modern multi-ethnic, multi-cultural country is simply wrong as well.

So - is pulling the statue down justified? In my eyes, it is. It sounds as if there have been multiple attempts to get it removed which have been thwarted by people who are keen to excuse the sins of the past - uncaring that a statue celebrating him must be a constant reminder to some sections of society of wrongs past and present, both elsewhere and in this country.

So you condone law breaking.

It’s criminal damage. However, if the good people of Bristol want to remove the statue via a democratic route than so be it.

Well we’re at it feel free come round to our road and torch my neighbour’s VW. VW acted heinously during war as Nazi stooges after all.

 

[Sarge]

Re the Bristol statue etc.

Personally I think there is quite a difference between having a chequered history (which of us hasn't!) and people like Colston. His fortune was (from what I have read) largely based on the slave trade - the Royal African Company transported 84,000 people from Africa to the Caribbean and 19,000 of them died on route. The money he so generously bought respectability with was earned that way. I don't think that toppling his statue is trying to rewrite history - I think it is looking history in the eye and saying that (no matter how he spent the proceeds) what he did was wrong, and having a statue celebrating him in a modern multi-ethnic, multi-cultural country is simply wrong as well.

So - is pulling the statue down justified? In my eyes, it is. It sounds as if there have been multiple attempts to get it removed which have been thwarted by people who are keen to excuse the sins of the past - uncaring that a statue celebrating him must be a constant reminder to some sections of society of wrongs past and present, both elsewhere and in this country.

Thousands of Bristolian's signed a petition some years ago to have Colston's statue removed from general public display ( to be relocated in a museum) , Avon council failed to act.

Im not advocating the destructive vandalism in Bristol (or London) yesterday in anyway whatsoever, however, stating the obvious & in retrospect, the local council should have acted on the petition to have the Colston effigy taken out of public display many years ago

Rhodes statue here in Oxford at Oriel college may well come under serious scrutiny in the aftermath of what took place in Bristol yesterday, and perhaps resited somewhere in a dimly lit corner inside Oriel college?

 

[makv]

So now protesters have gone and pulled down a statue in f Edward Colston in Bristol he was a slave trader so it shouldn’t have been there but now the protests are getting worse and will end up in a riot, wonder how long before people bring down the Cecil Rhodes statue in Oxford?

Peaceful protest outside of the Rhodes statue tomorrow at 5. Just sayin [emoji57]

Rhodes Must Fall in Oxford Protest

Událost Iniciativy v Oxford, Spojené království od Rhodes Must Fall In Oxford úterý, červen 9 2020 s 2 tis. lidmi, kteří mají zájem, a 651, kteří se zúčastní.

facebook.com

 

[ZeroTheHero]

So you condone law breaking.

It’s criminal damage. However, if the good people of Bristol want to remove the statue via a democratic route than so be it.

Well we’re at it feel free come round to our road and torch my neighbour’s VW. VW acted heinously during war as Nazi stooges after all.

Yes in this case I think I do condone the 'criminal damage' to public (rather than private) property.

Your point about VW is so wide of the mark that you show limited understanding of what is being discussed.

 

[PottersRightBoot]

Yes in this case I think I do condone the 'criminal damage' to public (rather than private) property.

Your point about VW is so wide of the mark that you show limited understanding of what is being discussed.

You’re condoning law breaking.

You condoned Cummings as well.

He was’nt breaking the law as far as the police were concerned of course.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

You’re condoning law breaking.

You condoned Cummings as well.

He was’nt breaking the law as far as the police were concerned of course.

I didn't condone Cummings. I condemned him - which is exactly the opposite.

But if you want to somehow conflate criminal damage, slave trading and the idiocy of a government advisor then go ahead...

 

[Gary Baldi]

So if protests continue, I assume we are ok with fans attending football games pretty soon then?