International News Afghanistan

[holdsteady]

Careful at least they are trying to sort it may not be great at it but Labour entered this with the yanks without an exit strategy. With Labour and the LibDems the SNP and the green all saying things which is hindsight and what they would do even though we Britain can’t do that alone.

Well as long as they are trying that’s all that matters.

 

[bazzer9461]

Well as long as they are trying that’s all that matters.

Looks like it however I think Biden has given to mall the end of the month

 

[Ian]

Careful at least they are trying to sort it may not be great at it but Labour entered this with the yanks without an exit strategy. With Labour and the LibDems the SNP and the green all saying things which is hindsight and what they would do even though we Britain can’t do that alone.

There was no need for an exit strategy. You stay in Afghanistan until you're no longer needed.

If an exit strategy is so important to you, please inform us of the US Military exit strategy for Korea. They've been there for 70 years, with no sign of leaving, yet 20 years in Afghanistan is an "endless war"?

Congratulations on reading some shallow opinion pieces on the problems in Afghanistan, and having an opinion. Yet thinking that this is about UK party politics rather than competent decision making...

 

[Marked Ox]

The British military deaths that I refer to are her views of sending our troops back to keep helping which I do agree with but we can mut do it alone we would need the might of the yanks, if we didn’t and went in alone I’m afraid the Taliban would overrun the British troops and tragically there would be many deaths.
Yes it is part of her remit to to hold the government to account as is any MP from any political party.
Your comment over criticism of the government not being difficult over their handling of Afghanistan is a bit crass really. It was Blair who sent the troops in 29 years ago because his besty Bush jr sent in troops so he felt obliged but neither had an exit strategy and they just kept on sending troops so when they lost the election the Tories inherited their problem, a problem that when you think of it couldn’t be fixed.

Who decided to pull out first? The yanks or the British. We are only a small nation with not enough troops to police Afghanistan on our own.
Bush Jr went in because Osama was being shielded there. Once he had been taken out then the alliance should have discussed an exit strategy which would have meant evacuating those Afghans that had helped the Alliance but evacuate first.
It’s all very well her and that Labour MP Dodds to criticise and then various people putting their opinions in amongst the mix.
Have the Afghans been let down? Yes
Have the trope that have been killed, maimed or left with serious mental issues been let down? Yes.
But to apportion the blame on a present government is wrong and the local female MP’s should be helping with advice to help the people that have been let down.

It isn't crass. The criticism of the Govt is justified when the PM, Foreign Secretary and other important Govt staff are staying on holiday whilst a major international incident involving British citizens, British Military and Afghan allies lives are very much at stake. Raab couldn't be bothered to make a phone call that would possible save lives after all. The only one who showed leadership was the Ambassador and the military on the ground.

Come on Baz, it is part of the job of an opposition MP to challenge and criticise a Govt.

Yes, Blair sent the troops in but that part of the mission has been complete a long time ago but this was with the support of the Tories. Change was happening in Afghanistan, it needed the young/younger middle age who have liked the changes (from reports) over the last 20 years to get into the positions of community influence and the older conservative people to naturally die off. Staying in longer could have enabled that. Blair's comments today are an interesting take. We've been in Cyprus far longer with far greater resources and the US have been in South Korea far longer with 75k+military etc.

We and the US had a few thousand military trainers/special forces in country + contractors mainly supporting the Air force. You keep talking about many deaths but this wasn't happening recently with no allied deaths in 18 months+. If similar levels were maintained why would that change?

The UK could have tried to form a new alliance with other countries as now there really is a potential vacuum for Al Qaeda and others to use. We don't always have to follow the US. It will also encourage other Jihadists worldwide, China/Russia/Iran gain more influence and the word of the western allies is worth a lot less for potential allies.

 

[bazzer9461]

There was no need for an exit strategy. You stay in Afghanistan until you're no longer needed.

If an exit strategy is so important to you, please inform us of the US Military exit strategy for Korea. They've been there for 70 years, with no sign of leaving, yet 20 years in Afghanistan is an "endless war"?

Congratulations on reading some shallow opinion pieces on the problems in Afghanistan, and having an opinion. Yet thinking that this is about UK party politics rather than competent decision making...

Your wrong. There was no time line for this conflict no one expected the alliance to be in for 20 years. If the yanks hadn’t pulled out then neither would we.
why were we there? Why were the Russians there.
A third world country that we could not overcome could not win and could not sort out gmfor the better.
All those that have helped the alliance interpreters and such should be evacuated, Biden has said I believe it’s over by the end of August, Layla and Anneliese want British troops to stay to carry on looking after the people who would oppressed by the Taliban but we are not a big enough force in which to do so. The Taliban would attack our troops and it doesn’t matter if we are one if not the best fighting forces in the world we wouldn’t be able to cope and it would make a lot of widows and orphans.
We weren’t needed there in the first place and to hear politicians say we’ve made a lot of changes there, that’s total bollox. this was a never ending war.
Effectively the war in Korea is over its more of a peace keeping issue now at the DMZ the 38th parallel.
I don’t think this is about party politics I just get pissed of with arseholes in Parliament blaming one another of the ness that the alliance have left Afghanistan in.

 

[Marked Ox]

Your wrong. There was no time line for this conflict no one expected the alliance to be in for 20 years. If the yanks hadn’t pulled out then neither would we.
why were we there? Why were the Russians there.
A third world country that we could not overcome could not win and could not sort out gmfor the better.
All those that have helped the alliance interpreters and such should be evacuated, Biden has said I believe it’s over by the end of August, Layla and Anneliese want British troops to stay to carry on looking after the people who would oppressed by the Taliban but we are not a big enough force in which to do so. The Taliban would attack our troops and it doesn’t matter if we are one if not the best fighting forces in the world we wouldn’t be able to cope and it would make a lot of widows and orphans.
We weren’t needed there in the first place and to hear politicians say we’ve made a lot of changes there, that’s total bollox. this was a never ending war.
Effectively the war in Korea is over its more of a peace keeping issue now at the DMZ the 38th parallel.
I don’t think this is about party politics I just get pissed of with arseholes in Parliament blaming one another of the ness that the alliance have left Afghanistan in.

Even Biden has publically said previously that the mission in Afghanistan was to build a stable Govt. Have you read Blair's comments, it comes across as that is what he was after. A timeline is irrelevant if the level of resource used is gaining so much more. What is the timeline for Cyprus by the way?

 

[bazzer9461]

Even Biden has publically said previously that the mission in Afghanistan was to build a stable Govt. Have you read Blair's comments, it comes across as that is what he was after. A timeline is irrelevant if the level of resource used is gaining so much more. What is the timeline for Cyprus by the way?

Well that worked well. Don’t think the UM peacekeepers or the British troops mind being in Cyprus nor the Cypriot people mind the British being there.

 

[Marked Ox]

Well that worked well. Don’t think the UM peacekeepers or the British troops mind being in Cyprus nor the Cypriot people mind the British being there.

It is irrelevant if they mind or not (I think some locals aren't so happy though). What is the timeline for leaving Cyprus as you were demanding the same for Afghanistan?

And Cyprus wasn't always a soft posting as my uncle saw his best friend killed by a sniper on the demarcation line so that demonstrates how things change.

 

[bazzer9461]

It isn't crass. The criticism of the Govt is justified when the PM, Foreign Secretary and other important Govt staff are staying on holiday whilst a major international incident involving British citizens, British Military and Afghan allies lives are very much at stake. Raab couldn't be bothered to make a phone call that would possible save lives after all. The only one who showed leadership was the Ambassador and the military on the ground.

Come on Baz, it is part of the job of an opposition MP to challenge and criticise a Govt.

Yes, Blair sent the troops in but that part of the mission has been complete a long time ago but this was with the support of the Tories. Change was happening in Afghanistan, it needed the young/younger middle age who have liked the changes (from reports) over the last 20 years to get into the positions of community influence and the older conservative people to naturally die off. Staying in longer could have enabled that. Blair's comments today are an interesting take. We've been in Cyprus far longer with far greater resources and the US have been in South Korea far longer with 75k+military etc.

We and the US had a few thousand military trainers/special forces in country + contractors mainly supporting the Air force. You keep talking about many deaths but this wasn't happening recently with no allied deaths in 18 months+. If similar levels were maintained why would that change?

The UK could have tried to form a new alliance with other countries as now there really is a potential vacuum for Al Qaeda and others to use. We don't always have to follow the US. It will also encourage other Jihadists worldwide, China/Russia/Iran gain more influence and the word of the western allies is worth a lot less for potential allies.

I agree the opposition have to criticise I have no problem with that. Off course Raab should have returned home immediately.
I don’t think any alliance troops leaving Afghanistan was truly thought out properly. What was complete that the troops were sent in by Blair? The death of Bin Laden? If so who not leave then?

Following the Yanks, Blair had his head so far up George Bush jr a**e it was embarrassing. Has Biden and Johnson thought this through? Off course not. We meddled in another countries affairs after the goal was achieved.

Two super powers tried and failed to control Afghanistan. The Taliban are dangerous and don’t believe the bull that they’ve been saying about changes that they will make which will be completely different to their previous mantra.

Afghanistan is one of those places that will never be defeated overcome or whatever. Tragically terrorism will always be here and if Al Qaeda we’re to regroup to the dangerous levels they had in the recent past will be very worrying would they move from the Middle East to Afghanistan or stay in both and regroup to a much much bigger terrorist force? Who knows, what is the answer who knows.
It will always be here.

 

[Marked Ox]

I agree the opposition have to criticise I have no problem with that. Off course Raab should have returned home immediately.
I don’t think any alliance troops leaving Afghanistan was truly thought out properly. What was complete that the troops were sent in by Blair? The death of Bin Laden? If so who not leave then?

Following the Yanks, Blair had his head so far up George Bush jr a**e it was embarrassing. Has Biden and Johnson thought this through? Off course not. We meddled in another countries affairs after the goal was achieved.

Two super powers tried and failed to control Afghanistan. The Taliban are dangerous and don’t believe the bull that they’ve been saying about changes that they will make which will be completely different to their previous mantra.

Afghanistan is one of those places that will never be defeated overcome or whatever. Tragically terrorism will always be here and if Al Qaeda we’re to regroup to the dangerous levels they had in the recent past will be very worrying would they move from the Middle East to Afghanistan or stay in both and regroup to a much much bigger terrorist force? Who knows, what is the answer who knows.
It will always be here.

The UN troops offensive role was complete (remember there were lots of countries involved, not just the US/UK) in creating a degree of stability, which was now being ensured by the ANA & ANP with allies support. Women's education was widely happening along with many other changes due to that stability. Just look at Kabul and other major population centres, before and after the 20 years, the changes are significant. So ultimately the Afghans themselves will overcome which is the way it should work.

It would take time, the younger generations would be getting into the positions of influence the longer the support went on and the changes become ingrained in daily life for all. We have no problem with a 'forever war' in Cyprus, the US no problem in South Korea, so why not Afghanistan?

 

[Marked Ox]

@dannyc

You might find this worth a read:

Sent to Halifax: One town's asylum story

What life is like for asylum seekers in a Yorkshire town - and what locals think about accepting more.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[bazzer9461]

The UN troops offensive role was complete (remember there were lots of countries involved, not just the US/UK) in creating a degree of stability, which was now being ensured by the ANA & ANP with allies support. Women's education was widely happening along with many other changes due to that stability. Just look at Kabul and other major population centres, before and after the 20 years, the changes are significant. So ultimately the Afghans themselves will overcome which is the way it should work.

It would take time, the younger generations would be getting into the positions of influence the longer the support went on and the changes become ingrained in daily life for all. We have no problem with a 'forever war' in Cyprus, the US no problem in South Korea, so why not Afghanistan?

Difference with Afghanistan is you can’t trust the Taliban will they stick to what the Alliance did to make the place better? They’ve already shown that they can’t be trusted.

lotsnof other countries? No where on the scale of the British can’t compare to the yanks they will always send in more than anyone else.

It looks like the ANA & ANP are becoming no more a lot are giving up. Their suooort is almost over now with the pull out.

the forever war in Cyprus is over May not be officially and with Famagusta a constant reminder of the invasion in 1974 I doubt whether the Turks would dare to attack again for being labelled Pariahs.
This forever war as you call it was partially instigated bu the Greek Junta followed by the Turkish invasion. They now control north Cyprus which is not recognised by the international community.
Korea is a different kettle of fish with North Korea being an unstable country no matter which Kim is in charge. That part of the world will always be a flashpoint so with UN forces on the south side of the DMZ and the North Koreans facing each other the chance of a resurgence in hostilities are very limited, Although Trup was a complete oaf he did make efforts to start dialogue with the Notth Koreans.

Finally your comment about the younger ones being in a position of influence ( I’m assuming you’re on about the Afghans ) they won’t make changes until someone who is moderate can take charge of the Taliban but somehow I can’t see that happening.

 

[Marked Ox]

Difference with Afghanistan is you can’t trust the Taliban will they stick to what the Alliance did to make the place better? They’ve already shown that they can’t be trusted.

lotsnof other countries? No where on the scale of the British can’t compare to the yanks they will always send in more than anyone else.

It looks like the ANA & ANP are becoming no more a lot are giving up. Their suooort is almost over now with the pull out.

the forever war in Cyprus is over May not be officially and with Famagusta a constant reminder of the invasion in 1974 I doubt whether the Turks would dare to attack again for being labelled Pariahs.
This forever war as you call it was partially instigated bu the Greek Junta followed by the Turkish invasion. They now control north Cyprus which is not recognised by the international community.
Korea is a different kettle of fish with North Korea being an unstable country no matter which Kim is in charge. That part of the world will always be a flashpoint so with UN forces on the south side of the DMZ and the North Koreans facing each other the chance of a resurgence in hostilities are very limited, Although Trup was a complete oaf he did make efforts to start dialogue with the Notth Koreans.

Finally your comment about the younger ones being in a position of influence ( I’m assuming you’re on about the Afghans ) they won’t make changes until someone who is moderate can take charge of the Taliban but somehow I can’t see that happening.

I know the history of the Cypriot war and it is irrelevant to the point. My point was that Afghanistan can get to the same place with time and we are happy to maintain forces (like the US) elsewhere. Why is Afghanistan different? The Cypriot War is over is it, why is our military there in such strength? We could have transferred them instead to Afghanistan if that is the case. We don't have a timeline to leave Cyprus but you expected one for Afghanistan.

Have you seen the tensions between Turkey and Greece in recent years? Troops on both sides on standby, the use of refugees as a weapon etc, Erdogan building a dictatorship and looking a pariah hasn't stopped him attacking Kurds in his country and in Syria.

The ANA and ANP got shafted but I was making the point that the pull out wouldn't have happened so they wouldn't have been shafted; for what is not a large use of military resources for the impact it was having. The long term changes and improvements would be become entrenched in Afghan society, with younger people making decisions used to these as the norm, making change back far less likely which in the end would have sidelined the Taliban especially considering the efforts of the ANA/ANP/Special Forces prior to being shafted. But it would have been a long term effort which we are happy to do elsewhere.

It looks like an anti Taliban alliance may be forming but whether that has any impact we wait to see.

Afghanistan could always be a flashpoint as well if it becomes a proxy in for Pakistan in their conflicts with India which is a real risk, as well as a base for Al Qaeda etc. Never mind the impetus and encouragement it will give to other Jihadists fighting around the world that the west has no real strategy or staying power.

 

[bazzer9461]

I know the history of the Cypriot war and it is irrelevant to the point. My point was that Afghanistan can get to the same place with time and we are happy to maintain forces (like the US) elsewhere. Why is Afghanistan different? The Cypriot War is over is it, why is our military there in such strength? We could have transferred them instead to Afghanistan if that is the case. We don't have a timeline to leave Cyprus but you expected one for Afghanistan.

Have you seen the tensions between Turkey and Greece in recent years? Troops on both sides on standby, the use of refugees as a weapon etc, Erdogan building a dictatorship and looking a pariah hasn't stopped him attacking Kurds in his country and in Syria.

The ANA and ANP got shafted but I was making the point that the pull out wouldn't have happened so they wouldn't have been shafted; for what is not a large use of military resources for the impact it was having. The long term changes and improvements would be become entrenched in Afghan society, with younger people making decisions used to these as the norm, making change back far less likely which in the end would have sidelined the Taliban especially considering the efforts of the ANA/ANP/Special Forces prior to being shafted. But it would have been a long term effort which we are happy to do elsewhere.

It looks like an anti Taliban alliance may be forming but whether that has any impact we wait to see.

Afghanistan could always be a flashpoint as well if it becomes a proxy in for Pakistan in their conflicts with India which is a real risk, as well as a base for Al Qaeda etc. Never mind the impetus and encouragement it will give to other Jihadists fighting around the world that the west has no real strategy or staying power.

What you have to remember in your last statement is India and Pakistan are nuclear countries so there is a fear that Afghanistan could use Pakistan as a proxy they certainly did a lot of bidding for Al Qaeda in the last 20 years or so if not longer.

we know what Erdogan has been doing and it may need a coup in Turkey to remove him from power.
I doubt whether there would be a return to hostilities over Cyprus with Greece and Turkey as there is as you say a lot of military in the south of Greece which are made up of British and UN peace troops. Yes there as a lot of Turkish troops in the north of the island but would they invade? I doubt it very much it’s been 47 years since the invasion which has to be blamed on the Greek military Junta and that Archbishop ( whose name evades me )

back to Afghanistan unfortunately there will be no peace as the west would have liked only the Taliban enforced peace, with the common use of Sharia law as a deterrent and the whip.

 

[Marked Ox]

What you have to remember in your last statement is India and Pakistan are nuclear countries so there is a fear that Afghanistan could use Pakistan as a proxy they certainly did a lot of bidding for Al Qaeda in the last 20 years or so if not longer.

we know what Erdogan has been doing and it may need a coup in Turkey to remove him from power.
I doubt whether there would be a return to hostilities over Cyprus with Greece and Turkey as there is as you say a lot of military in the south of Greece which are made up of British and UN peace troops. Yes there as a lot of Turkish troops in the north of the island but would they invade? I doubt it very much it’s been 47 years since the invasion which has to be blamed on the Greek military Junta and that Archbishop ( whose name evades me )

back to Afghanistan unfortunately there will be no peace as the west would have liked only the Taliban enforced peace, with the common use of Sharia law as a deterrent and the whip.

If Cyprus isn't going to kick off again, why do we maintain such a military presence? That could have been used in Afghanistan instead. And you back my point that time is needed just as it was with Afghanistan considering we spent less than 1/2 the time there.

The West wanted a non-Taliban but stable Govt, not a Taliban Govt with Sharia Law. And we are back to time, improved living standards etc with Afghanistan.

 

[bazzer9461]

If Cyprus isn't going to kick off again, why do we maintain such a military presence? That could have been used in Afghanistan instead. And you back my point that time is needed just as it was with Afghanistan considering we spent less than 1/2 the time there.

The West wanted a non-Taliban but stable Govt, not a Taliban Govt with Sharia Law. And we are back to time, improved living standards etc with Afghanistan.

What the west want isn’t what will happen in Afghanistan, as regards our military presence that’s more to do with Russia than whether the Turks will attack again.

 

[Marked Ox]

What the west want isn’t what will happen in Afghanistan, as regards our military presence that’s more to do with Russia than whether the Turks will attack again.

But there was a chance it could have happened but it won't now in Afghanistan. What are you basing your Cyprus comments on?

 

[bazzer9461]

But there was a chance it could have happened but it won't now in Afghanistan. What are you basing your Cyprus comments on?

Having been in the military.
Yes there was a chance but that has gone it certainly wasn’t a chance that was ready to implement it still would have needed a few more years of occupation to possibly achieve that.

 

[Marked Ox]

Having been in the military.
Yes there was a chance but that has gone it certainly wasn’t a chance that was ready to implement it still would have needed a few more years of occupation to possibly achieve that.

It would have undoubtedly been 10 years+. I don't believe we are worried about Russia and Cyprus, as much, if not far more, Russian money is sloshing around London as it is in Cyprus. Also, to negate such a threat we wouldn't need the level of resources. I will add as balance that Cyprus has been useful as a base for operations in the Med. I'm not saying we are wrong to be in Cyprus, just that the same could have been done in Afghanistan, albeit not now after a chaotic withdrawal.

 

[bazzer9461]

It would have undoubtedly been 10 years+. I don't believe we are worried about Russia and Cyprus, as much, if not far more, Russian money is sloshing around London as it is in Cyprus. Also, to negate such a threat we wouldn't need the level of resources. I will add as balance that Cyprus has been useful as a base for operations in the Med. I'm not saying we are wrong to be in Cyprus, just that the same could have been done in Afghanistan, albeit not now after a chaotic withdrawal.

When I was in the military the cold was still existed and the Russians were very active in the Mediterranean hence why we and other NATO forces were there. Maybe not so much now but with the threat of the Turks and with Erdogan being an unstable leader then British and sun forces remain. RAF Akrotiri is still one of the biggest British bases in the Europe, apart form the Turks the threat of Russia is still very real.
If the yanks had stayed in Afghanistan so would have Britain not sure about other countries but we may eventually have got the upper hand but we never really did, and like before the Alliance the Russians couldn’t and it’s on their door step the problem was we were arming the Mujahideen and that eventually was turned in the Alliance.
Afghanistan will be a problem country for many years to come.