National News Shamima Begum

QR said:
Would you think the same if a 15 year old white child was groomed in this way by Muslim terrorists?
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Probably the most simple way of saying it is that anyone who willingly and freely travelled to become part of ISIS can stay out of the country.
 
QR said:
I know what I think but I don't know what your think because you're side step the grooming of a 15 year old.
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No, my comments about "willingly and freely" are backed by the judgment, which says:

Begum "may well have been influenced and manipulated by others but still have made a calculated decision to travel to Syria and align with Islamic State,”

"Voluntariness of travel was not a binary question and she may well have been influenced and manipulated by others but still have made a calculated decision to travel to Syria and align" with isis.

So, you says she was groomed and I say she went of her own free will. It seems the reality is we're both correct, and/or the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

However, I would say that you probably don't have a great deal of evidence to prove she was groomed - you're just repeating a point made by her lawyer but which does not come with a great deal of publicly available evidence.
 
bashamwonderland said:
You can ignore on here, if you're that upset. Cheers.
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I’m not that upset I’m just a little embarrassed for you. I’d rather have a debate with you than ignore you.

Debate is how we stop racists being racists and idiots from being idiots.

Rather that going down the you're a poo-poo head route you could have tried to tear apart what I wrote,

That would have shown genuine intelligence.
 
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bashamwonderland said:
See "willingly and freely" and think about what that might mean re age.
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Do you not agree though that varying factors can influence someone's actions, and they can later come to regret those actions and want to change?

For example, someone may do something whilst suffering with addiction that they look back on after beating said addiction with regret?

I personally don't think it's fair to define people by the worst thing they've done, especially when they weren't of sound mind (under the influence of addiction, manipulation etc). I also think people should be afforded the opportunity to change.
 
MustardYellow said:
Do you not agree though that varying factors can influence someone's actions, and they can later come to regret those actions and want to change?

For example, someone may do something whilst suffering with addiction that they look back on after beating said addiction with regret?

I personally don't think it's fair to define people by the worst thing they've done, especially when they weren't of sound mind (under the influence of addiction, manipulation etc). I also think people should be afforded the opportunity to change.
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That's fine as a concept, but for me the important thing is to remember the value system with which she was aligning here. Arguably the worst value system ever to have arisen. Outward hatred and murderous intent towards women, non Muslims and gay people. We all saw the videos of what they were doing.

There is an element of allowing people to change but first comes a genuine expression of regret, which we have not seen from her. I'd rather we didn't waste taxpayer money on her.
 
bashamwonderland said:
That's fine as a concept, but for me the important thing is to remember the value system with which she was aligning here. Arguably the worst value system ever to have arisen. Outward hatred and murderous intent towards women, non Muslims and gay people. We all saw the videos of what they were doing.

There is an element of allowing people to change but first comes a genuine expression of regret, which we have not seen from her. I'd rather we didn't waste taxpayer money on her.
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It's obviously a very unique example.

Not only did she align herself with ISIS, she left her whole family to move thousands of miles away to join them - that's some serious dedication to the cause, especially at a young age. On the other hand, it's impossible to say for definite that she doesn't feel regretful for her actions and has turned her back on that way of life. It's something you can make an argument for either way.

You're right that the first step would be for her to express remorse and regret. I don't know if she's done this as I haven't seen all the interviews. However, I don't think that would make much of a difference in terms of the publics perception of her - we live in a very cut-throat society where often people aren't afforded second chances.
 
MustardYellow said:
It's obviously a very unique example.

Not only did she align herself with ISIS, she left her whole family to move thousands of miles away to join them - that's some serious dedication to the cause, especially at a young age. On the other hand, it's impossible to say for definite that she doesn't feel regretful for her actions and has turned her back on that way of life. It's something you can make an argument for either way.

You're right that the first step would be for her to express remorse and regret. I don't know if she's done this as I haven't seen all the interviews. However, I don't think that would make much of a difference in terms of the publics perception of her - we live in a very cut-throat society where often people aren't afforded second chances.
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I think the gravity of what you do tends to determine how keen people are to give you a second chance, nick a car, deal some weed etc and people will probably see it as a youthful mistake, join a death cult thousands of miles away and wish death on the infidels etc and people will be a bit wary of you and rather you were still those thousands of miles away. People knew ISIS were nasty fuckers committing atrocities, considering the effort involved in a 15 year old girl going all that way to join them it wasn't a spur of the moment bad decision.
 
I struggle with the duplicity in all this. People aged 15 have not reached the age of majority. They can't vote, can't buy a bottle of wine, can't drive etc etc. That's because we collectively don't trust their judgement at that age and so can't take their actions as seriously as we would an adult.
Then a child does something we hate and we insist they are treated as if they were at the age of majority. Suddenly the goalposts have shifted.

Is is disingenuous. There are plenty of under 18s who have a better grasp of politics and governance than the majority of adults, but we don't let them vote. There are under 17s who could easily pass a driving test. The are under 18s who would responsibly buy alcohol and take it back to their parents without drinking it. Either we make allowances for all of them, or we keep consistent with our opinion that 15 year-olds who do ill-advised things with all the conviction, bravado and self-determination in the world are still not competent to be held to the same account as an adult.

I'd hate to be a kid now. Everything you do is recorded and analysed, and you have the ever increasing pressure of accountability for your actions. No wonder there's an increase in anxiety. And more likelihood of teenagers running away in spectacular circumstances.
 
chuckbert said:
I struggle with the duplicity in all this. People aged 15 have not reached the age of majority. They can't vote, can't buy a bottle of wine, can't drive etc etc. That's because we collectively don't trust their judgement at that age and so can't take their actions as seriously as we would an adult.
Then a child does something we hate and we insist they are treated as if they were at the age of majority. Suddenly the goalposts have shifted.

Is is disingenuous. There are plenty of under 18s who have a better grasp of politics and governance than the majority of adults, but we don't let them vote. There are under 17s who could easily pass a driving test. The are under 18s who would responsibly buy alcohol and take it back to their parents without drinking it. Either we make allowances for all of them, or we keep consistent with our opinion that 15 year-olds who do ill-advised things with all the conviction, bravado and self-determination in the world are still not competent to be held to the same account as an adult.

I'd hate to be a kid now. Everything you do is recorded and analysed, and you have the ever increasing pressure of accountability for your actions. No wonder there's an increase in anxiety. And more likelihood of teenagers running away in spectacular circumstances.
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This isn't a modern phenomenon - children are held to be culpable when their actions are so grossly beyond reason that they pose a threat to society.

Jon Venables and Robert Thompson being the most obvious example.
 
holdsteady said:
I think the gravity of what you do tends to determine how keen people are to give you a second chance, nick a car, deal some weed etc and people will probably see it as a youthful mistake, join a death cult thousands of miles away and wish death on the infidels etc and people will be a bit wary of you and rather you were still those thousands of miles away. People knew ISIS were nasty fuckers committing atrocities, considering the effort involved in a 15 year old girl going all that way to join them it wasn't a spur of the moment bad decision.
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That's an incredibly simplistic way to view it. If life were as simple as people know something is bad so they don't do bad thing in question, crime/bad things wouldn't exist at all.

There are any number of reasons as to why people do what they do. As I said, you or I (and probably no one but her) know if she's remorseful, regretful and has changed. If she has or is willing to, then why shouldn't the chance be afforded? Because you don't like her?
 
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