New Stadium Plans - The Triangle - Planning

[bdodwell]

Guys, investors don’t just hand over large sums by way of unsecured loans. And from the FF it sounded like multiple, many investors they hope* to attract. The authorities will be all over things looking for laundered money.

* Hope. No mention of who these will be. We’re hoping to put spades in the ground next year so we ought to have signed pre-contract finance deals already. Yes, the owners are wealthy and probably know many other wealthy people. Do you think they made their wealth from handing over millions without security and guarantees?

The interest alone on that would be anything up to £60K a week. We’ve been told there would be varying amounts of debt and interest levels, and loan periods.

We’ve heard a lot of the word ‘sustainable’. That means we’ve got to be able to thrive as a club in the community and service the debt, plus have enough set aside for a rainy day, stadium repairs, extra legal costs etc. Our current ‘record turnover’ of £7M a year is already paying off our existing huge debt. So ticket sales each year if constant at the current level would just about pay the interest. At some stage we’d be hoping for a promotion, extra TV revenue, stadium naming right income, income from the hotel (assuming that’s not part of a separate trading company) plus some major player sales to keep on top of even low-level debt repayments.

In my view this is not sustainable from an economic perspective. This is like a 21st century version of ‘The Emperor’s New Clothes’ where everyone convinced each other it’s a good idea and blocks out common sense.

What would be my alternative? Either offer Ka$$am £20M to buy the existing place and hotel next door and redevelop it. Or set our sights much, much lower and build something small which we can add to depending on future success.

I honestly can’t see any way that the wheels won’t fall off and we’re left ground-sharing with Reading for a few seasons.

Anyone who thinks we'd have a viable football club if we bought the Kassam is deluded. It would cost an absolute fortune to get it up to a decent standard with its collapsing foundations. In any case no lender would load money against it and noone would want it once they read the surveys.

 

[Orkney Islands Yellow]

Anyone who thinks we'd have a viable football club if we bought the Kassam is deluded. It would cost an absolute fortune to get it up to a decent standard with its collapsing foundations. In any case no lender would load money against it and noone would want it once they read the surveys.

Collapsing foundations?!

 

[Concretebob]

Staying at the breeze block is a non starter. It's been attempted so many times by various owners going all the way back to when Merry took over - FK does not want to sell. Simple.

 

[Foley]

Yes, I get that. We’ve well and truly burnt our bridges with him. Poor planning by the current and previous owner not to at least rebuild the landlord-tenant relationship.

But he’s a businessman and if he thinks our offer is more than he’ll get from selling the land for housing (once he has paid to remove the covenant and got the bulldozers in) then there remains a chance. Repairing each stand one at a time and eventually erecting a fourth stand is more financially viable than selling our soul to a group of investors we won’t even know and who will likely end up owning the new stadium and charging us more rent than we currently pay.

Are you part of FOSB?
No way will we stay at the Kassam.

 

[Foley]

My point is that I’d actually like to support our club for the long-term, not see them fold.

We all would. But a once in a life time world class stadium or the Kassam ( that isn't even an.oprion)

 

[Orkney Islands Yellow]

We all would. But a once in a life time world class stadium or the Kassam ( that isn't even an.oprion)

And look what a new stadium did for Brighton as a club and the local economy. Brentford too. Cardiff and Swansea's new stadiums galvanised them and they're now established in the Championship after stints in the Premier League.

 

[MJB]

I wonder if Mods might wish to update the pinned post (if possible) to include a “Have You Responded To The Consultation Yet?” Poll question to remind and encourage folk to get their responses in.

 

[OX14]

It’s twice what Brentford’s stadium cost on prime land in the capital, but they presumably knew they could afford it after a season or two in the PL.

But when they moved into the new stadium in 2020 they were a championship side so I'm not sure you can use they knew they could afford it after a season or two in the premier league? There is no guarantee no matter how much money you throw at it that you will get a club into the premier league.

 

[Orkney Islands Yellow]

I wonder if Mods might wish to update the pinned post (if possible) to include a “Have You Responded To The Consultation Yet?” Poll question to remind and encourage folk to get their responses in.

Absolutely it's only a 21 day/three week consultation period with no guarantee it'll be extended. Get those comments of support in!

 

[SteMerritt]

I wonder if Mods might wish to update the pinned post (if possible) to include a “Have You Responded To The Consultation Yet?” Poll question to remind and encourage folk to get their responses in.

No problem, Poll added.

 

[Billyox]

We have to use our power of numbers and our power of social media, after a week when this is out of the papers and not being talked about those who object will forget about commenting on the planning portal. This where are numbers and social media can help in keep pushing people to comment
I know it's to late now for tomorrow game but if I was oxvox I'd be setting up laptops in the kassam and over at j's sports bar and getting people to add comments while they are there

 

[unification]

Just added my comments in support of the application to the portal.

Reading some of the objections, it’s your usual greatest hits of complaints. Wrong place, too much traffic, too high etc. Nothing in there that’s original nor that interesting.

 

[SteMerritt]

I have just added a direct link to the application commenting section onto the sticky post. It is a simple online form, and will take minutes to fill in. Please, everyone, think about your response and get it done.

 

[Ewes]

Are you part of FOSB?
No way will we stay at the Kassam.

Please don’t accuse me of that. No, I’m not. Just a long-term fan who has been supporting the club when we nearly folded with much lower debts in the past, so genuinely worried about the future if we suddenly have minus £150M on our balance sheet and can’t get out of Lge1.

My suggestion of buying and tarting up the Ka$$tad was a desperate one. But it would have been a credible Plan B had we built better relations with Mr K. I could’ve said let’s ground share with Ox City and spend money relaying their pitch until we find somewhere affordable to buy.

I want a stadium we can call our own and which is sustainable and affordable as much as the next person. A bigger venue at Stratfield Brake might have been worth the money they’ve suggested, but a 16k seater at the triangle with all the hassle around that, building bridges, well-being centres etc is what is bumping up the price.

You can look at the proposals in any way you like but being saddled with up to £150M debt for a 16k seater stadium is not good value for money. If we’re told that separate entities not tied to the club will own the hotel, maintain the access roads and non-football stuff, and the club debt is only £50M for the stadium, offices, training facilities etc then it’s worth it.

 

[holdsteady]

Please don’t accuse me of that. No, I’m not. Just a long-term fan who has been supporting the club when we nearly folded with much lower debts in the past, so genuinely worried about the future if we suddenly have minus £150M on our balance sheet and can’t get out of Lge1.

My suggestion of buying and tarting up the Ka$$tad was a desperate one. But it would have been a credible Plan B had we built better relations with Mr K. I could’ve said let’s ground share with Ox City and spend money relaying their pitch until we find somewhere affordable to buy.

I want a stadium we can call our own and which is sustainable and affordable as much as the next person. A bigger venue at Stratfield Brake might have been worth the money they’ve suggested, but a 16k seater at the triangle with all the hassle around that, building bridges, well-being centres etc is what is bumping up the price.

You can look at the proposals in any way you like but being saddled with up to £150M debt for a 16k seater stadium is not good value for money. If we’re told that separate entities not tied to the club will own the hotel, maintain the access roads and non-football stuff, and the club debt is only £50M for the stadium, offices, training facilities etc then it’s worth it.

Who has ever been able to build relations with Kassam to the point of buying the ground for a reasonable price has ever been on the table though? He has always viewed us dying/leaving and him selling it for flats as the long term goal I think, we were never going to match what a housing development would bring in on the site.

 

[Victor1986]

Anyone who thinks we'd have a viable football club if we bought the Kassam is deluded. It would cost an absolute fortune to get it up to a decent standard with its collapsing foundations. In any case no lender would load money against it and noone would want it once they read the surveys.

You had better get on to Building Control at OCC straight away mate - Tomorrow's match off for safety reasons!

 

[Oxymoron]

Please don’t accuse me of that. No, I’m not. Just a long-term fan who has been supporting the club when we nearly folded with much lower debts in the past, so genuinely worried about the future if we suddenly have minus £150M on our balance sheet and can’t get out of Lge1.

But we won't - the company that owns the stadium will have £150m of debt. This will be owed partly to the owners, partly the market. Profits from the ancillary developments at the Triangle will service this and (according to Grant last night) pay it off such that those profits will eventually benefit the club (no timeframes).

The club will continue to lose money to the tune of several million until we move, after which that should stabilise and then the plan is that we show a profit.

 

[MustardYellow]

Please don’t accuse me of that. No, I’m not. Just a long-term fan who has been supporting the club when we nearly folded with much lower debts in the past, so genuinely worried about the future if we suddenly have minus £150M on our balance sheet and can’t get out of Lge1.

My suggestion of buying and tarting up the Ka$$tad was a desperate one. But it would have been a credible Plan B had we built better relations with Mr K. I could’ve said let’s ground share with Ox City and spend money relaying their pitch until we find somewhere affordable to buy.

I want a stadium we can call our own and which is sustainable and affordable as much as the next person. A bigger venue at Stratfield Brake might have been worth the money they’ve suggested, but a 16k seater at the triangle with all the hassle around that, building bridges, well-being centres etc is what is bumping up the price.

You can look at the proposals in any way you like but being saddled with up to £150M debt for a 16k seater stadium is not good value for money. If we’re told that separate entities not tied to the club will own the hotel, maintain the access roads and non-football stuff, and the club debt is only £50M for the stadium, offices, training facilities etc then it’s worth it.

I also doubt there's that much room for expansion. You could only ever really build up, which looking at the design doesn't look like it would be easy.

 

[bashamwonderland]

Please don’t accuse me of that. No, I’m not. Just a long-term fan who has been supporting the club when we nearly folded with much lower debts in the past, so genuinely worried about the future if we suddenly have minus £150M on our balance sheet and can’t get out of Lge1.

My suggestion of buying and tarting up the Ka$$tad was a desperate one. But it would have been a credible Plan B had we built better relations with Mr K. I could’ve said let’s ground share with Ox City and spend money relaying their pitch until we find somewhere affordable to buy.

I want a stadium we can call our own and which is sustainable and affordable as much as the next person. A bigger venue at Stratfield Brake might have been worth the money they’ve suggested, but a 16k seater at the triangle with all the hassle around that, building bridges, well-being centres etc is what is bumping up the price.

You can look at the proposals in any way you like but being saddled with up to £150M debt for a 16k seater stadium is not good value for money. If we’re told that separate entities not tied to the club will own the hotel, maintain the access roads and non-football stuff, and the club debt is only £50M for the stadium, offices, training facilities etc then it’s worth it.

Everton's stadium is £800m (and rising) and they look to be heading back into the Championship.

The talk that 16k is not enough is just nonsense and based on a false belief that we're some kind of sleeping giant club. We will fill 16k reliably and some demand will be created for those seats. We can't just do a Darlington and throw in as many seats as the site can handle.

If we hived off the money making parts of the stadium and just kept the pitch and the ticket sales, we would be in exactly the same situation we are in now. The £50m debt would never be serviced. It's worth taking on debt if you're getting something which will create wealth in the future.

 

[MustardYellow]

Everton's stadium is £800m (and rising) and they look to be heading back into the Championship.

The talk that 16k is not enough is just nonsense and based on a false belief that we're some kind of sleeping giant club. We will fill 16k reliably and some demand will be created for those seats. We can't just do a Darlington and throw in as many seats as the site can handle.

If we hived off the money making parts of the stadium and just kept the pitch and the ticket sales, we would be in exactly the same situation we are in now. The £50m debt would never be serviced. It's worth taking on debt if you're getting something which will create wealth in the future.

If the plan is to be a top 30 club, is 16k enough long term though?

I wouldn't necessarily say we're a 'sleeping giant', but we're in a location where there aren't many, if any, 'big' clubs within a close proximity. If we get to a decent level (ie, the Championship), you may see a fair new match-goers, especially when the 'bigger' clubs come to town. Play decent football in those games and who knows, maybe a number of those become regulars, or bring their friends/family along to the next game.

If we stay in L1 16k is more than enough, we won't even get close to filling it most weeks. But if we progress under the right circumstances I think there's certainly potential for the fanbase, or at least match-going base, to increase considerably.

Just looking at it, there's only 1 stadium in the Championship this season that has an average attendance of below 16,000 so far (Rotherham).