National News Joey Barton

[dickwalton1964]

So he's a deeply unpleasant attention seeker but in spite of that, you seem in agreement with many of his outdated views.

Is it really outdated to hold the view that I'd rather listen to pundits who have a bit of gravitas in the game ? I've said I'd happily welcome the views of a female pundit who has coached or managed (obviously they can't play) in the top tier for a sustained period of time and been successful along the way. What about the point I made as to why aren't the likes of McAnuff, Prutton, Andrews, Hargreaves, Goodman, Parkin etc getting the big PL games and why aren't your Roy Keanes, Souness's etc doing the EFL ? They get L1, L2, NL for a reason - it's their level. The names I list there have played the game at a level miles and miles above that of the female game.

Nothing sexist about my views, it's all about the quality of the punditry.

 

[Grumpy Git]

It is indeed just your opinion. Apparently they both play to the exact same Fifa set of guidelines under the same governing body.

So I coach both female and male soccer.

Tell me how the drills we do differ Monday - Friday?

Explain how the team talks before and during games differ and the tactics change in your opinion ?


Ps as with male pundits there will be good and bad female pundits. I don’t know Aluko but I do know I like Robyn Cowan on the dub. Very knowledgeable.

I actually prefer Robyn to some of the male commentators like Tim Sherwood and Clinton Morrison, both of whom seem unable to use English proficiently.

 

[Osei Yaw]

You could have a former professional that played 700 games as a professional and watched 300 games. And a journalist who had played 0 games as a professional and watched 10,000.

Who is better qualified to talk about what they had just watched?

 

[Marston Road yellow]

I'm more open minded than most and applaud your coaching of both genders, but SOCCER??!! I know it's the American way, but the word just makes me shudder!!!

Only accent it’s allowed in. Try saying football with an American accent and it just doesn’t work!

 

[holdsteady]

You could have a former professional that played 700 games as a professional and watched 300 games. And a journalist who had played 0 games as a professional and watched 10,000.

Who is better qualified to talk about what they had just watched?

Pep Clotet claimed to have watched a billion or so hours of football, given some of the signings he made he must of done it with his eyes shut.

 

[Yellow River]

You could have a former professional that played 700 games as a professional and watched 300 games. And a journalist who had played 0 games as a professional and watched 10,000.

Who is better qualified to talk about what they had just watched?

In general I much prefer journalists rather than international ex players, especially as presenters.

Mark Pougatch or Colin Murray (or back in the day, Brian Moore or Des Lynham) over Gary Lineker every time.

 

[bazzer9461]

I actually prefer Robyn to some of the male commentators like Tim Sherwood and Clinton Morrison, both of whom seem unable to use English proficiently.

You forgot Dion Dublin in your listnofncrap commentators

 

[boogaloo]

I've said I'd happily welcome the views of a female pundit who has coached or managed (obviously they can't play) in the top tier for a sustained period of time and been successful along the way.

By top tier I presume you mean male top tier? The trouble is that women have had very little opportunity to coach or manage football teams, and the reason for that is because historically and even now teams tend to look for young up and coming managers by scouting newly retired male players almost every single time. It's almost impossible for women to get a foot in the door, as it's essentially a 'job for the boys'. The only top-flight manager I can think of bucks that trend in that he never played football at any level is Andre Villa-Boas. But of course, he is male.

Women simply don't have the same opportunity to do their 'apprenticeship' as a top-flight manager/coach aw men do.

Who knows maybe one day in the future, some team may take a punt on successful female managers such as Sarina Wiegman, but I think that is still a way off because why we would Sarina want to it? She's got a very nice lucrative contract with England. Why would she want to throw that away, and put herself in the firing line with 'anti-woke' prats like Barton and Piers Morgan?

 

[werthersoriginal]

By top tier I presume you mean male top tier? The trouble is that women have had very little opportunity to coach or manage football teams, and the reason for that is because historically and even now teams tend to look for young up and coming managers by scouting newly retired male players almost every single time. It's almost impossible for women to get a foot in the door, as it's essentially a 'job for the boys'. The only top-flight manager I can think of bucks that trend in that he never played football at any level is Andre Villa-Boas. But of course, he is male.

Women simply don't have the same opportunity to do their 'apprenticeship' as a top-flight manager/coach aw men do.

Who knows maybe one day in the future, some team may take a punt on successful female managers such as Sarina Wiegman, but I think that is still a way off because why we would Sarina want to it? She's got a very nice lucrative contract with England. Why would she want to throw that away, and put herself in the firing line with 'anti-woke' prats like Barton and Piers Morgan?

Oh that's a whole nother argument. Women could never manage a men's team because they don't understand the game / wouldn't command respect / might see some penises.

 

[tonyw]

I totally disagree, there is a massive difference. Look at the goalkeeping for one - a man must be looking at some of the shots from distance that beat a woman keeper and thinking 'bloody hell, our keeper would have chucked his cap on that' and a woman pundit will be saying 'what a strike, the keeper had no chance'. The speed of the play is totally unrelatable. A woman talking about the top end of the mans game, in my opinion, is giving no more insight than me, you or the next man hence the question - why bother ? Just get the best in class to give the most informed view.

Why do you think the championship, L1, L2, NL, whenever it's on, has the likes of Jobi McAnuff, David Pruton, Don Goodman etc, even Chris Hargreaves for the non-league, doing the punditry ? Why, because that's the level they played at, they can relate to it. You wont get McAnuff as the studio gest for Liverpool v Man City because he'd be out of his depth. Equally, Souness and Keane wont get the gig at Barrow on a Friday night.

In no other walk of life would you choose an inferior option. If you interview someone for a job you don't take second best, you'd take someone with the knowledge or obvious potential to best fit the position. There is no way a woman with 100 caps can give a better insight into the mans game than a male counterpart with 100 caps. The man will have played against the best players of his generation or even to have ever graced the game, he will have played in all the major competitions and in front of millions worldwide.

Seriously, when was the last time that a co-commentator or pundit told you something about the game that you didn't already know? In the US, we typically get Lee Dixon and/or Graeme Le Saux doing the gig on Premier League games. Both hugely experienced, both had as much exposure to the men's game as you could ask for.....and neither provides any significant insight or imparts any particularly useful knowledge over the course of 90 minutes. Reckon I could now predict just about everything they're going to say about any given incident before they've actually said it. And I reckon that's true of 99% of all co-commentators the world over*.....

.....it's why I always watch the games in Spanish where I can, because whilst I can't understand most of what they're saying - they are infinitely better at creating atmosphere, rather than droning on.

Co-commentators are selected because they bring status to the commentary, not because they are massively knowledgeable or insightful. If some of the broadcasters are now deciding that bringing diversity is more important than status.....well, whatever. It's not going to change the quality of the product, and it will give more opportunities to people who've been excluded from the game for a long time.


(*the one guy that I listened to that did periodically tell some enlightening stories and provide some deeper insight into tactical and training issues, and occasional make you sit up and say "Huh, that's an interesting way of looking at it" was Stevie Kinniburgh. So was almost a shame when we gave him a bigger job. Although he didn't help himself by talking at 150 words a minute and never knowing when to shut up!)

 

[OUFCGav]

The comments I have read from the people involved in the programming also says a lot - the women come in having done their homework on the games they are covering, and also do things like develop a complete understanding of the rules of the sport. The men come in.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

So, by the logic of some on here, PRB and Nick Harris (given his previous involvement with OUFC) are better qualified to comment/commentate on OUFC than, Jerome Sale, Nathan Cooper, Robyn Cowan and George Elek?

Just think about that for a minute.....

 

[stokeu]

Seriously, when was the last time that a co-commentator or pundit told you something about the game that you didn't already know?

All the time…Unfortunately it is another inane stat such as this is the first time a player born on a Thursday in April wearing the number 38 shirt has completed successful 2 passes after eating a Tesco trifle for tea, or this is the first time Muddlechester Town have beaten Rossendale Rovers since 1959, normally because they havent played them in that time…..


but nothing substantive, you are correct.

 

[dickwalton1964]

So, by the logic of some on here, PRB and Nick Harris (given his previous involvement with OUFC) are better qualified to comment/commentate on OUFC than, Jerome Sale, Nathan Cooper, Robyn Cowan and George Elek?

Just think about that for a minute.....

I have asked this question two or three times already but why don’t the likes of Chris Hargreaves, a sometimes pundit for NL games, Jobi McAnuff etc get the big PL head to heads ? Be honest, you’d be astonished if they turned to Hargreaves as one of the two or three pundits for Liverpool v Man City. Why ? Because he’s never played anywhere near that level. Women ?

Just think about that for a minute ……

 

[holdsteady]

The comments I have read from the people involved in the programming also says a lot - the women come in having done their homework on the games they are covering, and also do things like develop a complete understanding of the rules of the sport. The men come in.

Which ones are these then? Not on the channels I have watched, so thats Sky, BT, ITV, BBC and Amazon, must be on a channel I don't watch. The one who did the BBC scores coverage on Saturday afternoon seemed like she had never heard of half the lower league teams playing in it let alone the players.

 

[foghorn]

So, by the logic of some on here, PRB and Nick Harris (given his previous involvement with OUFC) are better qualified to comment/commentate on OUFC than, Jerome Sale, Nathan Cooper, Robyn Cowan and George Elek?

Just think about that for a minute.....

Comment yes. Commentate no. Two different things.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Oh that's a whole nother argument. Women could never manage a men's team because they don't understand the game / wouldn't command respect / might see some penises.

Barton is certainly one of them.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

Which ones are these then? Not on the channels I have watched, so thats Sky, BT, ITV, BBC and Amazon, must be on a channel I don't watch. The one who did the BBC scores coverage on Saturday afternoon seemed like she had never heard of half the lower league teams playing in it let alone the players.

No different to an awful lot of male ex Prem players then

 

[Followtheox1]

Seriously, when was the last time that a co-commentator or pundit told you something about the game that you didn't already know? In the US, we typically get Lee Dixon and/or Graeme Le Saux doing the gig on Premier League games. Both hugely experienced, both had as much exposure to the men's game as you could ask for.....and neither provides any significant insight or imparts any particularly useful knowledge over the course of 90 minutes. Reckon I could now predict just about everything they're going to say about any given incident before they've actually said it. And I reckon that's true of 99% of all co-commentators the world over*.....

.....it's why I always watch the games in Spanish where I can, because whilst I can't understand most of what they're saying - they are infinitely better at creating atmosphere, rather than droning on.

Co-commentators are selected because they bring status to the commentary, not because they are massively knowledgeable or insightful. If some of the broadcasters are now deciding that bringing diversity is more important than status.....well, whatever. It's not going to change the quality of the product, and it will give more opportunities to people who've been excluded from the game for a long time.


(*the one guy that I listened to that did periodically tell some enlightening stories and provide some deeper insight into tactical and training issues, and occasional make you sit up and say "Huh, that's an interesting way of looking at it" was Stevie Kinniburgh. So was almost a shame when we gave him a bigger job. Although he didn't help himself by talking at 150 words a minute and never knowing when to shut up!)

This. Nearly all the time they state the obvious and you realise having been a pro doesn't seem to necessarily give you any special insight at all. I do like Rio Ferdinand though and think he would make a good coach. He often points out things that are not obvious.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

I have asked this question two or three times already but why don’t the likes of Chris Hargreaves, a sometimes pundit for NL games, Jobi McAnuff etc get the big PL head to heads ? Be honest, you’d be astonished if they turned to Hargreaves as one of the two or three pundits for Liverpool v Man City. Why ? Because he’s never played anywhere near that level. Women ?

Just think about that for a minute ……

The simple answer is audience relatability. As good as Hargreaves, McAnuff etc may be as pundits, they will be a very long way down the list compared to more recognisable/relatable faces and former "club legends"/Panini sticker album icons, who can actually string a couple of sentences together.

That is why better pundits will not get those gigs. The TV bosses have to make sure that there is something that draws a proportion of their target audience in and there's nothing better than an, icon watched from the terraces whilst supporting said club 20 years ago, to achieve that. The fact that they may be utter dogshit as a pundit is largely glossed over.

I would suggest that female pundits and commentators are being increasingly used because that also chimes with a significant and growing demographic of the viewing audience and the biggest growth area in the sport.

It is the same in many, many sports and it's not going to change, no matter how much some wish Saint and Greavsie were still ruling the roost