National News Nottingham Stabbings

Whingit said:
I just don't think that more murder is the answer to murder. Life and the world isn't fair. Sometimes justice will not be done and upholding the rule of law is more important than a bloodthirsty eye for an eye crusade for vengeance, which won't bring the deceased back or make their families sleep in peace at night anyway.
I believe the prosecution should have gone for the murder conviction rather than the easy manslaughter option they could have fallen back on if it didn't work out anyway, although a conservative might argue that the option they took saved a fortune on a trial and was the most efficient use of taxpayer's money. Murdering people to save money is another argument conservatives might have but will struggle to gain support for within a civilised society.
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If my one of my loved ones had been murdered in this fashion then then I would sleep slightly more peacefully than knowing he could be released because he is “cured”.
 
ZeroTheHero said:
According to the legal expert on the radio, because he has been sent to a secure hospital if he is ever deemed 'cured' then he *has* to be released immediately. The judge could have apparently given a 'hybrid' sentence by which he would have been sent to a secure hospital and then if cured would have to spend a certain amount of time in prison afterwards.

It's a difficult one to get right and an easy one to pontificate about. If he was very mentally ill when he committed those horrible crimes then he is (at least to some degree) possibly not responsible for his actions. But being mentally ill is not an absolute, it is a continuum and I'm not sure that except in extreme cases it absolves a person of responsibility for their actions. I don't know if this is one of those cases.

I suppose personally I am quite torn. On one hand, someone who does something so horrible should be locked up and the key thrown away - on the other hand punishing someone for life for being ill seems pretty unfair and rather Victorian. I suspect that he will actually be confined for a very long time, but the lack of certainty won't help the victim's families.
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If someone has already murdered 3 random people and tried to kill more in a completely unprovoked attack who is actually qualified to say they will never do it again? There is no science that can predict he will not start hearing voices again, absolutely mental that it is even a possibility.
 
holdsteady said:
If someone has already murdered 3 random people and tried to kill more in a completely unprovoked attack who is actually qualified to say they will never do it again? There is no science that can predict he will not start hearing voices again, absolutely mental that it is even a possibility.
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Cured is not a term that is used in the Act so it is factually wrong what he has said. To add to this, if/when released someone under a restriction order, they will be conditionally discharged and subject to a number of conditions, normally around treatment too as well as liable to be recalled.
 
Followtheox1 said:
Cured is not a term that is used in the Act so it is factually wrong what he has said. To add to this, if/when released someone under a restriction order, they will be conditionally discharged and subject to a number of conditions, normally around treatment too as well as liable to be recalled.
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It’s more the fact that they can be released than the term I have a problem with.

On being recalled that’s great, but that could well be after he reoffends, which given what he has shown he is capable of is a horrific thought.
 
Whingit said:
I just don't think that more murder is the answer to murder. Life and the world isn't fair. Sometimes justice will not be done and upholding the rule of law is more important than a bloodthirsty eye for an eye crusade for vengeance, which won't bring the deceased back or make their families sleep in peace at night anyway.
I believe the prosecution should have gone for the murder conviction rather than the easy manslaughter option they could have fallen back on if it didn't work out anyway, although a conservative might argue that the option they took saved a fortune on a trial and was the most efficient use of taxpayer's money. Murdering people to save money is another argument conservatives might have but will struggle to gain support for within a civilised society.
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I would beg to differ on that point.

The victim impact statements, the readings on the Court steps etc the families do not feel that justice has been fair to them nor will they have any peace from the hospital order sentence.

And they have to live with the thought that, if approved by a first tier tribunal, he could be released back into society.

Exceptional crimes call for exceptional sentences/solutions.
 
holdsteady said:
It’s more the fact that they can be released than the term I have a problem with.

On being recalled that’s great, but that could well be after he reoffends, which given what he has shown he is capable of is a horrific thought.
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So.. it is true people on restriction orders can be and are released but this can only happen via an independent tribunal or the MOJ. So unlike a lot of other sections of the Act, a doctor can't just discharge.
 
Essexyellows said:
In cases such as this where there is absolutely no doubt of guilt, a high degree of pre-meditation, committing multiple murders and attempting more then tell me where ethics and standards come into it?

I`m not talking about following the American route of executing people where there is any doubt, or for a single murder, we have prison for them.

There is no punishment in his sentence, there is no justice for the families.

Justify why, in exceptional cases, there should not be exceptional punishment?
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There have been cases where there was 'no doubt' where subsequently it has been found the conviction is wrong.
 
Sharp Edges said:
I probably wish I hadnt read this. I know people that have been cured of cancer, it hasnt stopped them having cancer again. If someone somewhere decides Calocane is fit enough to be released, whats stopping him becoming ill again?

Jeez i need two beers
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It’s a joke, if you commit a crime just say your insane and you get off!
 
He admitted and was convicted of three attempt murders and three manslaughters and has a long history of paranoid schizophrenia. The Judge said he will ‘very probably’ be detained for the rest of his life. He’s not ‘curable’.
He ain’t going anywhere.
 
Eaststanding said:
He admitted and was convicted of three attempt murders and three manslaughters and has a long history of paranoid schizophrenia. The Judge said he will ‘very probably’ be detained for the rest of his life. He’s not ‘curable’.
He ain’t going anywhere.
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The judge said very probable but that has no basis in law and means nothing. He likely will not be released for many years if at all due to a number of factors but technically on a restriction order you can be discharged much sooner. You are right though curable is not a great term to use. It's true that some people do recover completely from psychosis but they are not usually people with a long history.
 
Mojofilter said:
The justice system should not be about making victims or victim's families feel better. Them not feeling happy, or not wanting a chance of release, should never factor in at all. Of course they think that.
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Whose it justice for then?
 
holdsteady said:
So nothing to do with the victims and their families then?
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I think everyone gets why there is a call to satisfy the victims but if we satisfied the victims of every crime we'd have half the current population.
 
ZeroTheHero said:
According to the legal expert on the radio, because he has been sent to a secure hospital if he is ever deemed 'cured' then he *has* to be released immediately. The judge could have apparently given a 'hybrid' sentence by which he would have been sent to a secure hospital and then if cured would have to spend a certain amount of time in prison afterwards.

It's a difficult one to get right and an easy one to pontificate about. If he was very mentally ill when he committed those horrible crimes then he is (at least to some degree) possibly not responsible for his actions. But being mentally ill is not an absolute, it is a continuum and I'm not sure that except in extreme cases it absolves a person of responsibility for their actions. I don't know if this is one of those cases.

I suppose personally I am quite torn. On one hand, someone who does something so horrible should be locked up and the key thrown away - on the other hand punishing someone for life for being ill seems pretty unfair and rather Victorian. I suspect that he will actually be confined for a very long time, but the lack of certainty won't help the victim's families.
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But release is dependent on being 'cured'. Phycologists that worked in the case said he will forever have the mental illnesses he's been diagnosed with and can't be cured, making release very very unlikely.
 
holdsteady said:
So nothing to do with the victims and their families then?
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No. It should be about long term outcomes. This case is unique due to the mental illness element, but in most normal cases the only consideration should be what's most likely to improve long term outcomes as a whole for society.
 
MustardYellow said:
But release is dependent on being 'cured'. Phycologists that worked in the case said he will forever have the mental illnesses he's been diagnosed with and can't be cured, making release very very unlikely.
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This is not true at all. There is nothing within the Mental Health Act that mentions cured to my knowledge and definitely not in the criteria for restriction orders.
 
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